Screenwriting : Outlines (again) by Eric Christopherson

I've weighed in on this many times. The only outlines I use are the ones in my head. I mull over a project until it's clear in my mind and then I go for it. Doesn't mean I never make any notes or jot down key things I want to remember, but I prefer to just write.

I tend to charge in and write. I do cards, but not an outline as such.

I can tell 95% of the time when a writer hasnt outlined or done some pre-writing process. At least with a first draft. Outlining will undoubtedly make your first draft stronger, but sure maybe by the 10th draft the outline would cease being helpful.

There is a GREAT interview with him on Jeff Goldsmith's Q&A podcast... and I don't outline either...

Danny I've never had anyone say "you didn't outline!" when they read my scripts, lol (maybe they think it, but no one has ever said it!)

I guess my first draft is kind of like an outline, in that I usually revise twice (sometimes 3x) before I send scripts out to execs.

That's the way I write, I go on the ride and see what my creative mind thinks.

Outlines help me. But sometimes when Manhattan is quiet and the Cabs are quiet and I have an idea I just let it rip. The result is 50/50. Sometimes garbage. Sometimes greatness. But over all I would say for me once I have an idea and make an outline it helps.

I mentally sort out the story first, do research where needed and take extensive notes on all story ideas/events/characters and finally plot. Then maybe a short story or treatment to see how it all lays out. Before writing any of the screenplay, I have to outline. This allows me to control pace and sequencing. It's probably the same result, and time frame, as just writing a first draft.

That's one way of looking at it. I own HOHW, watched it double-digit times. Wrote articles on it. HOHW follows the STC Structure almost to a t. The ALL IS LOST and DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL have been switched - that's it. Taylor might not write outlines, but I'm willing to bet he knows structure like the back of his hand. He's just at a point where the outline happens in his head. This is also my goal by the way. Do all the prewrite materials in my head and just let the script rip! LOVE Taylor Sheridan!

Look, I've said this many times; there ain't no right way. The end result is either good or it isn't. I use outlines, synopsis, treatments or sometimes, like with the case of my latest work, I had an idea of the story in my head and began writing. However, about midway, I outlined the second half of the story. While writing the first half of the script, many great ideas for scenes were born.

For my JD Salinger biopic, I read a couple of books, watched documentaries and put together an 80 scene outline. Many of the scene ideas were used and some were not. No matter what you do, you should allow your characters the ability to present you with ideas for dialogue and story ideas as you move through the creative writing process. I know that sounds a bit crazy; but my dialogue is always built from ping-pong conversations between characters and gets streamlined during the editing. As a musician, I get the jazz analogy and definitely believe good writing can involve room for improvisation. But for some, be organized and having a map of where they're going is essential. And without that, the work may turn out to be a bloody mess. In the end it's all about connecting the dots so that your story makes sense.

I always have to let the story "marinate in my head" for awhile, sometimes weeks, sometimes months, before I start. While mulling of over, I'm outlining in my head. Once I have it pretty well set (again, I always know my ending and it almost never changes) then I write my first draft. I do jot down notes while I'm writing if there's a particular scene I want to remember, and occasionally I'll do a very loose beat sheet, a la STC, but that's it.

I finished my last script a few weeks ago. Since then, I've been mentally hashing out the next one. I know my ending and I pretty much have my first 20 pages lined out. I know the particular life-altering moments and the challenges my characters will face. After weeks of thinking and planning, I'm ready to start.

So yes, just because a writer doesn't have a written outline or a stack of notecards, doesn't mean they don't know story and structure.

I did have a producer (a pretty big one) tell me recently that my writing was "as good or better" than any other writer he works with. So I guess my method is working for me. At the end of the day, what else matters??

What's so great about social media is we can learn about and consider alternative approaches to writing. Thanks for sharing!

Jody:

I love your outlook and that you march to your own frigging drummer. I think the guy who penned the quote "opinions are like assholes, everyone has one" must have been a screenwriter. From day one of my scriptwriting journey, I've had people telling me what is the way, like they brought down the f*#king stone tablets of scriptwriting from Mount Sanai. And quite frankly, most of these folks haven't written a piece of work I give a shit about. There's any number of folks in the forum that can render pretty fair advice including some that have posted here.

I just went into a forum at another website where the members are kissing a screenwriter's ring because he's had several movies produced. None of them are ones I've heard of or any of the actors in them. And I read the professional reviews that said the work was formulaic and nothing special. So bully for the writer and I hail him, inasmuch as he been paid for work that's been produced. However, I aspire to a much hire goal.

If you bring Alexander Payne, Phil Kaufman or William Goldman in the room, I'll kneel, curtsy or do the sign of the cross. Otherwise, I'll keep doing what I'm doing in the way I've been doing it thus far. When they're pouring my ashes over LA Harbor, hopefully my body of work will mean something. If not, then I'll have died trying.

Head Marinade would be a great band name! Let's get the band back together, Jody, Shawn and Phillip! Talk about fate/karma/Stage32dipity....I just bought a Digitech Trio-Band Creator yesterday! We don't even need a crazy drummer anymore! (Whoops.....sorry Phillip....yes we do....you got the van.)

Bill C:

Yeah, let's do it. We'll start playing barbecue contests, chili cook-offs and county fairs. At least the food will be good.

Phillip is the only drummer that I have ever seen wearing swim fins while playing a double bass drum. Phillip rocks! You still have the van, right, Phillip?

I think T Sheridan is a former Actor turned Writer. His brain was trained to read & analyze story as an Actor. Years of craft. So yeah, some folks can just spit out 100+ pages without a "blueprint." I can't. I usually have to "see" the entire movie in my head, backwards from end to beginning, think sequences & genre logic. Then write my outline.

I never write anything until I have the idea, opening, main characters, some plot points and an ending. Then I go into a rough draft. When I was younger I never used to outline or even think about the flow of the story in that way. After something rough and I start to hit some roadblocks or get stuck then I outline like crazy and that helps me. I use Save the cat Formula and every outline template and story breakdown I can. That has helped me a lot. Of course Everyone is different and has their own process.

Bill C:

The van with the plush red, beer and bodily fluid stained carpet? The one that is permanently locked from the inside? Yeah!

I won’t debate the merits of Save The Cat. I’ll only say this:

All work and no cat makes Phil a dull boy. No, kill the cat, drown it, choke it. Wait, but I need cat. No I don’t want it! Here kitty, kitty, kitty. All work and no cat makes Phil a dull boy. No, kill the cat, drown it, choke it. Wait, but I need cat. No I don’t want it! Here kitty, kitty, kitty. All work and no cat makes Phil a dull boy. No, kill the cat, drown it, choke it. Wait, but I need cat. No I don’t want it! Here kitty, kitty, kitty. All work and no cat makes Phil a dull boy. No, kill the cat, drown it, choke it. Wait, but I need cat. No I don’t want it! Here kitty, kitty, kitty.

Philip

What books did aspiring Screenwriters use before "Save The Cat?" was published?

Dan M:

I don't know what other people did but I used the Egyptian Screenwriters Bible which had to be translated from hieroglyphics. You could say their rules and techniques were cast in stone.

I've tried it both ways, with or without an outline. But if I use one I don't tie myself down to it. Sometimes I'll go back and look at the outline while in the middle of writing the script and I'll be surprised at how different the story has become.

I've said this before in a similar thread. In television, you have to. It's not an option. Not if you want to make it.

Jeff no one here is a working television writer, pretty sure. And working in a collaborative environment on a salary and under a deadline is completely different than writing a spec script on your own.

It depends IMHO. It's impossible for someone adapting a book or telling a historical event story to NOT outline (the book itself is the initial outline), however for original screenplays there is something to be said of NOT outlining depending on how you approach storytelling. I can see how some people just create a couple of interesting characters in their mind, PICK a type of story they want to tell (comedy, drama, crime, etc.) stick those characters in that type of story path, throw some gasoline on the path, light a match (some triggering event or action), throw it on and see what story comes out through those characters. I'm more of a think what kind of story I want to tell, create some interesting characters through which to tell the story, flesh out their backstory to the point of the beginning of the story, then tell the story through them being an active participant that drives the story based on their true characterization. I don't know if that necessarily works however.

@Jody agreed. It's just what I was told, I'm FOR SURE not a working TV writer! :) For scripts, I've technically outlined them all. Some of them in my head, others I've written out. The ones I had written, the story was just unfolding and didn't have the time to throw down the pages in Final Draft. If I really need/want to dive deep into the story and/or characters, I will write/beat it out - the story beats that is!

What really matters is a paycheck. However your employers want script done, do it and make deadline.

Good work habits...

The problem is: on an assignment you will need to turn in a treatment for the script as one of the steps, before the script is written. So it's good to develop basic work habits instead of writing a spec without an outline that gets you an assignment where you must turn in an outline... and don't know how to work that way.

Sheridan is a DNA - does not apply - because he writes, directs, and produces his own films. He doesn't sell his screenplays - he finds the money to make his films.

What William said. You need to know how to outline and how to write a treatment when it comes to assignments as this is the first you have to deliver. From my experience even before you get the job/contract. If you write your own stuff you of course are free to do it the way you prefer.

I wonder what the short cut "DNA" stands for. I get the meaning and agree, but never heard the expression. Would be nice if anybody could explain. The only DNA I know stands for Deoxyribonucleic Acid. Thanks!

Elisabeth-

DNA stands for Does Not Apply. Glad to see you sharing in the lounge.

Oh, I see. That's why he included it in dashes. LOL. Thank you, Steven. Next time I open my eyes when reading.

Elisabeth Meier Sent you an email.

Dan Guardino From my experience they require a treatment of 1-2 pages and they call it treatment. I know a worked out treatment is longer and so I would think that is what you call a beat sheet.