Screenwriting : Thicker Skin Please ... by Jeff Lyons

thanks, Jeff! When are you going to Dental School? I've started the paperwork for USC Dental School. Puts me back in Los Angeles :)

Dan--HA! I think I'll be selling Encyclopedias door-to-door instead. :)

You would probably get better results if you tell the screenwriter something like I would like to have seen this or that instead of saying something like "this scene is a mess." However, I don't read screenplays for that very reason.

HA... guys ... I didn't say that exact thing... I was just using it as an example to illustrate the contrast idea. :)

A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, no? LOL!

An opening statement like, "This scene is a mess" is just that - an opening statement of opinion. Then a give and take hopefully happens - sheesh, I think Jeff was only making a point by using the extreme. The more blunt, the better for me. In fact, it's difficult to get people to be as direct in their comments as I would like. No offense taken, I just need to know what they think. Of course, I'm no poster-child for soft language, so you can guess how many friends I have.

Beth-- you know... just talk to people like adults... no need for sugar or candy or anything. Just be an adult. :)

Huh? Yes, of course! Just making a joke... You mentioned mothers/children in your post, did you not? Lol! ;) And like others have already better said, giving constructive criticism is certainly the better method for helping writers.

Oh, and I completely understand the point you're making with this post, Jeff. Some people do struggle with review, opinions and outside analysis of their writing. It's hard for some to separate themselves from the work. :)

Personally, I love the feedback and I always have. It has helped me get better. However, I can get really frustrated at times when a critic gives bad notes on a script or a pitch, just because they don´t read carefully. I know they have little time and tons to do, but if they choose to read someone´s work then they should pay more attention also, in order not to waste their own time and give a screenplay or a pitch about a story a fair chance. A few times I have been given pointers or have recieved questions about certain specifics regarding content I provided and went back to the script or the pitch and the answer to the question was as clear as day. Sometimes even spelled out... So, yeah, I enjoy the criticism but I do hate it when the individual Reading my work or a pitch kind of shoots me down, asking questions just because he/she can without actually paying attention to the content I provided.

Zlatan, I don't know it your saying you do and in a way your saying you don't ..... doesn't read like you do.. to me.

Lina - You´re kiddin´ me, right???

When it comes to sensitivity it doesn't stop with just writer's everyone who cares about what they do are sensitive to what be other say or think about it. It's called human nature if you don't care about what you are doing then it shouldn't matter what people think. I've come to the conclusion people are going to hate on you no matter what you do, you can't please everybody and there is always going to be folks that don't like you personally or your work. So just take it with a grain of salt and keep it moving. I find in the film and acting industry just about everyone has a big ego from small production to big productions these types want to feel like they are something. They will be little you, completely ignore you because your not big enough or famous enough for them or they are just mean and hate to see others get ahead. I've learn that every little bit of attention matters and every opinion doesn't. If you can truly accept criticism accept it, learn and grow from it. Don't say you can and then you really can't. Let's face it there is nothing easy about putting your work out there and having your feeling ripped before you. Just don't let it stop you and keep it moving. =)

Being frustrated by certain parts of criticism/feedback, as I described it previously, does not mean that I don´t. Huge difference. Apologies if I was in any way unclear.

Writing a script is like running a marathon. You've just reached the finish line and your brain is like jelly. You hope to hear that you've done well and the script is ready. But instead some dude tells you to bounce back up on your feet and start over: "Try again, you must run faster. Go on, you can do it".

I take all criticism with a grain of salt, glean what I think is important from it and discard the rest. I also don't hand my screenplays off to random people for their "review". I only give them to trusted friends or to professionals in the industry. This industry is very subjective and you have to learn to grow a thick skin if you want to persevere. There's no crying in screenwriting!

"There's no crying in Screenwriting" LOL ... I recently gave another writer my first 10 pages. It was the very first time I've given any of my writing to another writer. I truly didn't know how I would react. I told myself I would be professional and not take it personally. I told myself that I would use the notes to make myself a better writer. As I waited for my very first notes, I found myself pacing, feeling a knot in my stomach, distracted. I couldn't get my mind off it. I received my notes. First note ... "It didn't make me fall asleep." My response? I'm pleased to say that I was correct about my reaction. I didn't take it personally. In fact, I actually found it to be a compliment. The rest of the notes really put me on point. I learned a great deal from just this little 10 page read. It's also how I discovered I was writing a shooting script rather than a spec script AND that my direction was getting in the way of the story, making it a less than smooth read. After this, I had to ask myself why I was so nervous to begin with. The reason wasn't that I might receive less than glowing notes. It was because I thought that if I received less than glowing notes it meant that I simply had no talent as a writer. And there it was ... a fear of being told I had no talent. "Don't quit your day job." :) We all have stories in our heads. The craft of writing is to get them out of our heads and onto the page and in a way that is compelling, interesting and/or fun! It is also a craft that can be learned so now I know ... I am able to stand back and take stock of any notes I receive and use them to hone my craft.

I luv feedback! more eyes, the better! (shameless self promotion - please read my Teaser Opening of Empire tv script! 8 pages!, posted to my bio page, under log lines!).

I only share my scripts with people I can be sure are professional and know what they're doing. Otherwise, I don't see the point of it.

Art? Art hangs on the wall! scripts should always be about paper (green paper$$)

Dan M. Yes, that's why they call it "show business" and not "show art". I read the eight pages.It reads good. Instead of sneaking into studio lots you might want to attach a director that has worked on projects like yours.

@Aray I only share my work with my boyfriend, who is also a writer, and rarely even talk about writing to family members anymore. They mean well and are very supportive, but they do not understand anything about screenwriting or the industry.

thanks Dan G no more sneaking onto movie lots! i've made enough connections to get a drive pass to FOX, Paramount, Universal. (from sneaking and meeting people who work there)

This was why, as a writer, I worked as a journalist, before writing for film - there's no better school than a harsh editor who's trying to meet a deadline and finds your story crap. You learn quick, you learn hard - most importantly, you learn to keep an audience engaged and your skin grows thicker with every red mark on your drafted story

@LaShawn, yep! I've been a freelance writer for many years and it has taught me so much in regards to professionalism, deadlines and taking that constructive criticism

Hi Jeff, The comment, "This scene is a mess" is far from constructive as far as comments go. Being more specific might help get the director or whomever closer to the results they want. What about the scene needs work? Structure, plot dialogue, character development? In my experience most artists DO identify with their work, especially while in the process of creating that work, and expecting otherwise is mere folly. Maybe not so much in highly commercial projects.

LaShawn: yep ... good editors are amazing. Journalism is a great place to learn to write... so is a TV writer's room. Story editors and showrunners have no time to coddle or unruffle feathers. You learn quickly that it's the work, not you (if it is you then you don't last long).

@Jody for sure! there is something quite cathartic when you get your very first red-marked draft back from your editor - if it looks like blood was spilled over it, and the editor says "you've got something here, keep working" it's like a switch has been turned and it doesn't go off - to me it was like "what can I do to learn to make less of these marks, to make my story better?" and I still ask myself that question whenever I write

@Jeff for sure! I have to say I can understand why it's so hard for writers to separate their work from their personal feelings. I mean writing can and is such a personal experience. But, like how I said, working in journalism taught me so much about detaching my feelings from my writing and this, enabled me to grow and be a better writing in so many ways. I was worried at one point that it might make my writing dull or mechanic-like, but to my surprise, it was the opposite, once I learned to view my own work objectively and to say to myself "this story is a mess" and structure it properly - I was able to work with other writers (as a manuscript editor, screenplay adviser, etc) and my own writing has evolved significantly.

It certainly takes time to develop that thick skin. I remember when I first started writing I would take everything personally. I'd get angry at people for negative comments. Now, I'm able to shut out the noise and listen to what the reader is saying. Though, sometimes people say things that are hurtful and not at all constructive which we also need to learn to push aside, because people who do that clearly have their own issues to work through.

Sensitive nerve endings are a part of the value of any artist/writer, etc IMO. If I want thick skin, I'll call a marine...or a rhinoceros.

That sensitivity is what can break an artist though. If you can't learn to suck it up and move forward when you get rejected or criticized, you won't make it in this industry (or any industry for that matter)

<<< shameless self promotion again! please read my Empire Spec. I am up to page 13 or 14? need feedback, especially if u speak "Street." check my bio, under log lines.... psst, Lee Daniels, are u hiring?

I'd like to read someone else's work before I let them tear mine apart

I have exactly two people I seek feedback from, my boyfriend and my mentor, who is a working screenwriter and has helped me immensely. Otherwise, unless it is a producer, manager, agent or feedback from a contest I entered, I'm not really interested in others critiquing my work.

Steve- read mine! Its on my bio, under log lines

Aray- it s a rough 1st draft. Im writing in between lunch. Its for practice. I am also using a Timer and clocking my writing. Forcing myself to focus and write fast like a pro. It s like muscle memory. Do it enough

Jody, rather than learning to "suck it up" I think it's a matter of learning to manage both the sensitive, artistic side of the writer and the professional, business side. (One does not need to be obliterated while the other survives.) This is one of the greatest challenges for all artists working in the world today, and one that I deal with constantly as a teacher in the performing arts. I also write, and I feel writing is one of the most personal aspects of creating.

@wendy I don't think one has to "obliterate" their sensitive side, but they'd damned well better put it in the backseat if they want to navigate the screenwriting industry. It's a dog eat dog world. You gotta be the wolf. And are you teaching adults or children? Because I think there is a profound difference between nurturing the soul of a child and dealing with an adult who cries anytime someone tells them their writing needs work.

As I said, Jody, I think one must learn to navigate those contrasting energies in the professional world. No one is arguing that. I disagree with the idea that a "tougher skin" is the best route for doing that, but have fun running with the wolves! I teach adults and children and everything in between. In my experience with adults and children, I find one gets better work out of people from a place of kindness, mutual respect, and creative excitement about a project. That doesn't mean criticism isn't necessary. It most certainly is. But if you let people open up, you'll get better work from them in creative fields especially.

But we aren't talking about a classroom Wendy. We are talking about being in the business world of screenwriting. There will be people who criticize your work, anytime you put it out there. Some do it more constructively than others, but a writer who is truly dedicated to breaking in and getting work is going to be able to differentiate between the two, take what's usable away, and keep moving forward. Like I said earlier, "there's no crying in screenwriting." And industry professionals don't have the time to coddle people. Which is the point of the original post suggesting people grow a thicker skin.

<shameless self promotion again! Im up to page 14 of my Empire spec. Changed the Teaser, gave Cookie a gun. I'm gonna rip off the movie, Godfather, and making it my own on the Spec. Please read. i'd like feedback... don't worry. I got tough skin. It ain't personal. Rip me! please read. it's on my bio, under log lines.

I think my skin became steel thick when a few things happened: 1. Getting my work reviewed by others I do not know who practice the craft. 2. Constantly learning about my craft and practicing it. 3. With experience and knowledge, knowing how to separate useful constructive criticism from the contrary. 4. Giving contructive reviews to other people's work. Francis Ford Coppola's website, Zopetrope.com, helped me with that enormously. I discovered it in 2002 and it helped me to grow. But after a while, I outgrew that site and by 2007 I needed someplace to go to get to the next level. That's when I met my screenwriting mentor, an Oscar nominated screenwriter, member of the Academy and a mentor at the Sundance screenwriting lab. He is very direct and may trouble the thin skinned but even he knew how to use some form of diplomacy. However, if it were not for Zoetrope.com, I would've never been ready for him.

People will accept negative feedback better if you compliment them on something they did right first. If you just point out negative things they will think you are just some know it all that wants to show them how smart you are. That is just human nature.

<<17 people have viewed my spec. feedback? likes ? dislikes? Take me to town! I finished the Teaser and Act 1. Working on Act 2 tonight. Should go fast. it's laid out in my treatment. another 10-12 pages? My concern is my spec script page count will be shorter than the "pro" Empire scripts. please read! I think I got the pacing down. it's a 1st draft.. gonna streamline later, make it lean. script's gonna be naked, lots of empty blank space

Dan M, sorry, just a friendly reminder... Direct solicitation/self-promotion is preferred to be kept out of threads, and out of the craft and business forums. Of course asking for feedback/review within natural conversation is perfectly fine, but I count 5 posts now so... ANYHOO, please feel free to post and ask for feedback on scripts, loglines, etc, in "Your Stage" or on your profile page. Thanks. :)

Dan Guardino, WISE words indeed...

Gotcha Beth!

Wise words by Clayton Broomes, Jr., as well as Dan Guardino.

LOL, love this post. So accurate. My very first read, from another Writer here at Stage32, resulted in an overall statement of .... "It didn't put me to sleep." Honestly, given what could have come from it, I was pretty tickled with this. Especially since it was my very first peer review/read. What I took from that statement was ... "it's got some good plot points to work with and it kept my attention enough to keep reading ... now get to work and make it better." Ohhhh and lookie, lookie ... my reading partner is in this thread. Hi Dan Maxx!!! I've been away for nearly 3 months now. I've missed Stage32 but now I'm back in my writers seat. That last 3 months have been summer vacation so crazy, crazy around here but now kidletts back in school. Ya, Grownup Party!!!!

I agree we writers can be a bit thin skinned. If we want to last in this business we need to learn to take, accept, and use feedback/criticism.