Screenwriting : Pay to Play by DAvid Rorie

agreed

Facts BIG facts

Bro, I was just saying the other day how Stage32 has come up on charging people for every little thing. You would think the aim would be to help out the little guys that don't have studio bucks. It really is ridiculous.

This is like a talent agency saying pay us $500 for a photo session and we'll make you a star! LOL

David

Facts bro I’ve had that myself too lol

lots of Industry ppl/readers/producers/agents cant survive financially at their salary jobs and desperate writers paying for reads is good income.

I couldn't agree more. I also think we need to stop paying for the opportunity to pitch ideas. It's exploitative. I don't mind paying for competitions, that's different.

Do you mean pay people to read our work as in getting feedback, DAvid Rorie? Writers can get free feedback from each other, but it might not be on the same level as a professional.

Or do you mean pay people to read our work as in getting access to producers, execs, production companies, etc.? If you mean this, I see it as paying people for their time, which makes it like any other profession. I also see it as an opportunity to get a script in front of people who can buy it or produce it.

The alternative to paying people to read our work is building relationships/maintaining relationships so they (professionals) will read our work for free.

During the past four decades - I've never paid anyone to read my work. It must be a new thing (or a whole lot of dumb writers).

Hi Doug would you be so kind as to take a look at my script when it’s finished ? Would love to take it into production ;)

One side of the coin is this: are writers scripts really that good, and original, that they don't need 'fresh eyes' and feedback? On the other side of the coin: when I worked at the studios I got a salary to read scripts (scripts tend to be top tier in story and structure), provide story analysis, development notes, and to create schedules and budgets. On the side I've been paid to read screenplays and provide notes, and I've been paid to read books and provide notes. My 20 years of experience isn't free.

We have all scene posts from people that have failed at writing and are now charging for their opinion.

No one cares what a paid service says about your work. These scores are arbitrary and meaningless in the industry. Even a high Blacklist score has no real weight.

They are educational. But there are better ways to learn.

If someone tells you their notes will move your career forward, or they can do anything other than provide some education… well. We are all adults we can figure out the truth.

People who write novels have editors and copy-editors. Most people who write PhDs, equally hire someone to comb the manuscript, before submitting, it. A paid reader can add real value.

Where it gets sketchy for me is the whole ranking and contest racket. People pay for notes to score better on lists and in the end, I doubt there is great value in moving up the red or black list etc. Most of the note givers in this context are either volunteers (contests) or are being paid peanuts.

I help other writers with scripts when they get stuck. I will read through the script, note down what makes sense to me and what doesn't. I work on pacing, work out technical, grammatical, and story problems. I condense it into a nice little 3-4 page pdf, and then sit down with the writer to discuss what worked and what didn't.

This then helps the writer take the script into a direction that works better - OR they ignore what I say completely (which is TOTALLY cool and absolutely fine with me!).

But why should that be free? I have experience, I hope I know what I'm talking about... why should I put time and effort into helping someone else? I love teaching, I love my classes that I get to teach at college, I love working with young people who are starting out. Some of that I'll gladly do for free.

But... not all.

Script Doctors, rewrites, editors... it's a part of the game.

When you're working, chances are someone else will do a rewrite on your script. They'll get paid.

I agree that there are some contests out there that are sketchy, but just be smart about where you put your money. I was a finalist at Nicholl - and it did absolutely nothing for my career. Am I saying Nicholl is a scam? OF COURSE NOT. But you need to decide what you do with your money, and what you do with your career.

If you're waiting for a paid contest to make you a winner and then make your career happen with zero input from you... not going to happen.

If you pay a professional for their notes, time, and effort... that may just improve your writing. Even if it's to spite their opinion, which is also very awesome.

Don't do it. Have a bunch of peers, do quid pro quo with them...U wanna assign a professional onto something, fee is always included...

You get the RefLEX with STAGE32 . So that's that for me.

The odds of getting a script produced from paying someone to read it on Stage32 are extremely remote. Not worth the time. Ive always gotten better feedback from writers I have met and who genuinely care about me / know me.

I never pay for feedback but people can and should do whatever they think will help them achieve their goals.

So most of you don't believe in capitalism? You'd rather be provided services from industry insiders for free (such as this lounge discussion platform)? You think amateurs you know can somehow provide better, more objective script feedback than pros you don't know? Good luck with all that.

Eric. This has nothing to do with capitalism. Some people want to get feedback for free and some people are willing to pay for it. Personally, I don’t do either one.

Why should people not get paid for their time and expertise in reading and offering feedback? I don't write for free, and I wouldn't expect someone to spend their time reading for free. It's up to me what I'm willing to pay and to whom. :-)

Rhonda Stegall Aycock And Renee Stegall. I agree. People can get paid for giving feedback if someone is willing to pay them. Like you said it is up to you what you are willing to pay and to whom. Obviously, it wouldn’t be me because I don’t give feedback to screenwriters. I really don’t know why some people think they should tell other people what they should or shouldn't do when it comes to trying to break into this business as a screenwriter. Nobody here or anywhere else knows what is going to work for anyone or when it might happen.

I even had that pulled on me years ago by a teacher reaching a writing class. I asked her if she would look at something to see if I was picking up what she was talking about with dialogue and she pulled that.

Mark, no I will not 'look' at your script.

Eric Christopherson I have one paid script editor I trust and who does excellent work. But I have also had super-useful notes from my network, especially directors. A director can often spot things that writers overlook.

The network route can definitely be hit-or-miss, but I have connected with one fellow screenwriter in particular, and we read for each other. If you find someone who is legit and has a similar sensibility, it can work well.

Doug thanks for being so kind about it! I didn’t want you too anyway

Lol

Hi Christiane Lange, thanks for the insight! I am looking for a good script editor. Is it okay if I get that person's information?

Hey, DAvid Rorie! I'm Kay, the Community Manager here at Stage 32. Good to meet you! I wanted to take a moment and thank everyone for contributing to this lively debate. This is absolutely what this community is here for - to discuss, grow and share in the craft and business of film & television (and digital media). Here are just a few things to keep in mind, however, when posting, commenting, and otherwise engaging with this community:

1) This platform is exclusively for film, television, and digital media professionals (or those looking to get into the profession). While there are other social media sites to network with those in the industry, this is the only one that is built on the idea that we are all here to lift each other up.

2) With that in mind, each of you is at liberty to decide for yourself whether or not something is worth your time or money. Demanding that someone else stop paying for or charging for their services assumes you know best, anyone who doesn't agree with you should be ashamed, and neither of those approaches lifts anyone up.

3) It is a gracious thing for someone to take a moment out of their day, their lives, to offer up insight free of charge. If you are fortunate enough to have people you know that can give notes to the quality that you require and in the time that you require without charging you, PLEASE be thankful for such fortune! But all too often, the Production Triangle demands at some point we must pay for quality (i.e. If you need it Fast & Cheap, it won't be Good. If you need it Cheap & Good, it won't be Fast. and If you need it Fast & Good, it won't be Cheap).

At the end of the day, having paid services available simply gives people more choices. Not having those services would take that choice away.

Along those lines, I'd love to invite those following this thread to give a shout-out to the amazing people you've received free notes from! Give them a little love by commenting with their names, what you loved about their free feedback, and a generous THANK YOU! Was it quick? Was it honest? Was it encouraging? Was it thorough? Let's celebrate these generous souls!

SHOUTOUT to:

Shellie Schmals

Emily J

Taylor C. Baker

Jim Boston

Tennyson Stead

Colette "ByFilms" Byfield

Stephen Folker

Daniel Hess

Drew Paige

Marcos Fizzotti

Eugene Mandelcorn

Karen "Kay" Ross

Honorable Mention: RB and Ms. A. ;)

Shout-out to:

Laurie Ashbourne. She gave me terrific free feedback on a short script. The feedback was honest and thorough. I appreciate it, Laurie!

Colette "ByFilms" Byfield. She gave me free feedback on two loglines and a script poster. Great feedback! She's always honest when she gives feedback and advice. Thanks, Colette!

Karen and DAvid, I'd like to give shout-outs to (and in no particular order):

1. Danny Manus

2. Dan Guardino

3. CJ Walley

4. Richard "RB" Botto

5. Holly Jurbergs

6. Craig D Griffiths

7. Doug Nelson

8. Maurice Vaughan

9. Bill Albert

10. Chantel Siciliano

11. Marcos Fizzotti

12. Jane Tumminello

13. Phillip "Uncle Phil" Hardy

14. Imo Chadband

15. Amman M. Said

16. Steve Cross

17. Claude Gagne

18. Andrea Zastrow

19. Veronica R. Tabares

20. Dan MaxXx

21. Bill Cosentini

22. James Welday

23. Evelyne Gauthier

24. Jorge Prieto

25. Cannon Rosenau

It's mainly all about the support and encouragement I've received from those I've listed (and many others) since jumping onto Stage 32.

Danny M., Craig, and Dan G. made the list because they showed me how it pays to use today's tools (not the ones from the 1970s and 1980s) to turn out a modern script. Holly volunteered to read one of my scripts ("Really Old School") and gave me really valuable feedback...and that's what Chantel has recently offered to do for those who've answered her call.

Jorge gets a shout-out after showing me how to better describe characters.

Doug, if you hadn't told me that women weren't welcome in the saloons of America's Old West, I would've had a much tougher time with "Kitten on the Keys."

For me, I get a whole lot of knowledge about story, format, etc. through reading other people's scripts...and I thank CJ, Maurice, Holly, Bill A., Marcos, Jane, Steve, Andrea, Veronica, Evelyne, Cannon, and so many, many other Stage 32 members for posting their screenplays/teleplays online for all to see.

Thank you so doggone much, Stage 32!

Very well said, Karen. And shoutout to you and Laurie Ashburne for giving me notes on my work. I have paid for feedback from industry professionals on this platform. I consider it an investment. I can say it helped me win a contest that led to my script being optioned and in development. Pitching at the very least has gotten my name out there. No one says you have to pay for services if you don't want to. It's just available. It's up to you how you choose to move your career forward. As has been said you are the CEO of you.

@Jim, Thanks so much for the shout-out. I love being a contributor to this community of like-minded creatives, and giving my take on the process. Cheers!

Thanks for the shout-out, Jim! And thanks for all your support, encouragement, and comments!

Shout-out to Martin Reese for giving me free feedback on my pitch deck! I still use the feedback for pitch decks. Thanks again, Martin!

"You are the CEO of you" - MARTIN REESE. Wow, says it all in 5 words.

Can't take credit for that quote, AMMAN. All the credit goes to RICH "RB" BOTTO our fearless leader. That's how I think now. It is a more entrepreneurial way of thinking in terms of your career in the entertainment industry.

DAvid Rorie even the top-level professionals in every sport pay a coach to provide them with counsel, feedback and expertise. Having a qualified industry coach to read my screenplays and enable me to receive tangible specific notes is exceedingly valuable.

Daniel Stuelpnagel Hear, hear! Sage words, indeed.

Jim Boston. Thanks for including me. I had no idea I ever helped anyone.

Thank you, Jim!! thats very kind, appreciate the shoutout!!

I think I missed the boat on this topic. However thanks @christopher Harmon for your wise eyes.

I am sorry I am a little confused with your comment David, I believe if everyone feels that it would boost their confidence to pay someone for their first script by a trustworhty Screen Consultant for a feedback, then Paying for the service is a good thing. It is valuing one's time. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am on fire!

Leonor LeRu. I don’t pay for feedback but I am confused as to why anyone would think paying for feedback is a sign of desperation. That just seems very strange to me.

Is it desperate for a serious golfer to pay a pro to take strokes off their game. Why would said golfer seek a peer with the same handicap for free feedback. Not smart. Their game could get worse.

As mentioned, novelists. Musicians seek producers or vocal coaches for paid feedback. By broad definition, trade schools prepare students for a career.

There's little desperation in seeking improvement. It is a wise pursuit. And voluntary.

Always play pool with someone who can beat you. (My motto.)

I like that Doug Nelson

Very interestimg! I am learning a lot so far. Like watching great scripts! Starwars!!! Wow! My petsonal opinion is If I may my preference because I have no exlerience, I was not asked to pay but I offered because I prefer to. For me there is no right or wrong I would be ashamed to use anybody's time without asking. It is up to me really, Because of this experience I am on fire ready to explode. That us tge effect of helping each other with care. I always do think. If It makes me feel happy then yes. I would do it. I would imvest if miney is available. I would not ask if I am not ready. Thanks! I am very super happy I did.

You are paying for an industry professional who is currently working in the industry to share their knowledge and to read and review your script using that particular expertise to give you feedback and specific guidance.We routinely pay professionals (attorneys, doctors, accountants, mechanics, etc. for their time and knowledge.) Getting guidance from a professional can save you years of floundering.

"Getting guidance from a professional can save you years of floundering." That's so true, Rosemond. Most of my early screenwriting career was spent not getting guidance from professionals. My career is going nicely right now, but where would it be if I did get guidance from professionals?

Maurice Vaughan that might be true/ However, the problem is these people who charge to read screenplays aren't regulated so anyone can call themselves a professional and start charging people for feedback.

You're right, Dan Guardino. I think that's why writers have to do their due diligence to find out if readers are really professionals.

Caveat emptor.

Also, beware of paid "professional" readers (and free amateur readers) who trash their clients in public, online. Say how bad a script is, reading it was a waste of time, etc. While the writer's name isn't mentioned, it breaks a trust. Imagine seeing public comments like this and knowing it's your script that's being trashed. And you paid for it!

You're right, E Langley. That's unprofessional. That would be a terrible feeling ("Imagine seeing public comments like this and knowing it's your script that's being trashed").

You never know where it will rear its ugly head.

I feel that if you’re getting more out of it it’s worth the money. Like if you’re getting notes and feedback that’s something that should be paid for. But for just reading it? Maybe I should pay myself to read my script. Although I think I charge too much.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank you all wonderful people for all support I've been receiving. I'm no specialist, but you can always count on me to help you polishing your loglines and synopsis, as well as giving constructive feedback on your work.