Your Stage : Screenwriter, Script/Dialogue Editor/Proofreader by Catalina Lowe

I'm curious why you posted this. Basically all you are saying is you are a script consultant or whatever and you thought someone's script sucked. Are we supposed to discuss this or are you just sharing the fact someone paid you to tell them their script sucked.

One-dimensional characters and OTN dialogues are probably the two most-common shortfalls of novice writers. Bill Costantini asks why they do not know better? Bill Costantini asks why do they continue their attempts at torturing the citizens of the world with such tripe? Bill Costantini asks do they really think their banal banterings are good enough to rank them with the best of the best writers in the world? And Bill Costantini asks why is Bill Costantini referring to himself in the third person? Bill Costantini feels your pain, Catalina - he feels your pain.

Thank you for commenting, Dan. I did not say "someone's script sucked" - I was merely pointing out the fact that here was a GREAT SCRIP but that the "dialogue sucks" - not the script as a whole! As a script editor, I was sharing my experience of reading scripts and pointing out to screenwriters that when they write their screenplays, be aware of the importance of character/dialogue - meant to be a helpful tip, not to be derisive to the screenwriter! I was hoping that perhaps other writers would share the challenges they face when it comes to writing good dialogue - a topic open for a discussion. Have a great week.

Thanks Bill Costantini! Pain is pain, oh yeah, and writing is immensely painful but---"Writing provides a deliciously familiar place: a front row seat to this beautifully unhinged, often delusional, consistently legendary thing we call life." Ah, such is life!

I dig third person, omnipotent Bill. He gives me hope for a better future.

Catalina, Thanks. I was a little confused why you were posting this but now that you cleared it up I get it. Dialogue is probably not my strong point but I agree it is important.

Catalina, with so many positives going for it, including an interesting and saleable premise, I wonder how much hope you hold out that the writer can "fix" or salvage this script and get some interest from someone? I haven't much experience with a script/dialogue editor. How much do you tell the writer about exactly what they need to do to fix the issues? Couldn't they [conceivably] hire someone better at dialogue to shape this into a great piece and move to the next level?

I agree with Sam. If you do this for a living this would not encourage too many people to want to use your service. Also it takes a lot of practice and writing a lot of screenplays before someone can write real good dialogue. I have written two dozen screenplays and my dialogue today is better than say my fifth or sixth screenplays. Sam suggestions would have been good to offer the screenwriter. Someone isn't going to get better just because you tell them their dialogue sucks. If you want to help someone fix it you have to tell them how to do it and suggest they listen to their dialogue and see if it sounds somewhat like people talk. FWIW characters in movies talk differently than they do in real life or the movies we would be like watching someone's home movies so the dialogue doesn't sound 't exactly how people talk.

Of course, sometimes we all just throw out a comment quickly to make our point and not necessarily to be tactful. Since no one in particular was being hurt, perhaps we want to move on to Catalina's point. I, for one, am still curious: what will come of this strong and saleable script which has some flaws...

Dan G: You are so right on this one. A few weeks back, I gave a free consultation and gave very specific advice regarding dialogue. In this case, the writer had two characters in the room and one of them was asking and answering his own questions. I suggested to the writer that they make that a ping-pong conversation rather than a monologue. I took part of their scene and rewrote it with how I thought it could be improved. There is a current thread in the screenwriting forum about "constructive criticism" and most agree that involves specific examples delivered in a well mannered fashion. Telling a writer their work "sucks" or "blows" may be a quick path to convey one's opinion but it won't help build confidence for the person on the receiving end of the remark. Last year, a producer friend sent me a short script and I wrote notes on the PDF file. Much of what I wrote was very positive but I made the mistake of using the word "stupid" to describe one main character's actions. The script writer ignored all the positive remarks and flipped out over my stupid remark. My producer friend was pissed off at me and it created a lot of unnecessary drama. I learned a valuable lesson that day.

Wow! Guys! What's is this really about? Let's just all calm down a little, shall we? Of course, I NEVER told this writer in person that his/her dialogue SUCKS. C'mon, get real! It was merely my way of describing OTN dialogue in general (do yourself a favor and read the articles of some of the script readers who make regular contributions to on-line SCRIPT Magazine - it may surprise you to see how often they use the word "suck" when referring to screenwriting mistakes (in general), those glaring mistakes that we have to read time and time again! Perhaps just our way of expressing some of our own frustrations.) However, regarding the feedback to the writer: ALWAYS gentle, kind, encouraging and most importantly, supportive. Of course, also to offer some solid advice and suggestions on how to improve and move the screenplay forward to the next level.) I thank you all for your comments and input - the idea was to talk about the challenges you as the screenwriter face when writing dialogue. Screenwriting is the single hardest and most difficult (writing) craft there is - I salute you all! To quote Winston Churchill: "NEVER NEVER GIVE UP." Good luck!

I don't know. I like the bluntness. Or haven't you guys criticizing ever heard of the successful book, Your Screenplay Sucks! That's a helpful book on showing us what not to do.

Or the more niche-driven book "Your Screenplay Sucks, But You Already Knew That and Just Wanted a Little Sweet Pain With Your Cold Week-Old Coffee This Morning, You Masochist You!"

Catalina: With all due respect. You posted this with this heading: Screenwriter, Script/Dialogue Editor/Proofreader, therefore presenting yourself as a consultant. Under dialogue evaluation, you posted this: Dialogue: SUCKS! (Totally on the nose - no subtext, oh no!) . Again, you didn't say poor or weak dialogue or dialogue needs improvement. Finally, you end with this: Make sure your "in-the -face" characters don't keep on "hitting" me "on the nose" when they open their mouths! I won't stand for that! (-:. . So what was your objective here? You're speaking as an authority, which is perfectly fine. But you've now taken a little criticism for your reviewing style and consequently advising other folks to "calm down". I certainly have my own frustrations. However, that doesn't have anything to do with my posts regarding showing fellow writers respect for their efforts. And, I also painted a picture of what happened when I used the word "stupid" in providing script notes to a producer. So I illustrated why one should take care in how they render advice. And, I owned up to my own choice of words. As far as your point about "on the nose dialogue", I'd never heard that term used before. So I looked it up. And, as a consultant, you might have considered illustrating that via an explanation or even posting a link like this: http://www.whatascript.com/movie-dialogue-09.html. Thanks for saluting us. I salute you too!

Sam Boseley, I think she hit it when she pointed out that the dialogue was on the nose. That's a YUGE reminder not to write like that. Use subtext and such.

Bill: I now I could use a little more subtext with my frozen waffles and weak ass coffee.

The first time I met Phillip was in a dark, hot diner. The kind-of diner that served Sorrow for lunch, and Pain for dinner. He was sitting on a rusty stool. The type-of stool that was begging for a respite from this sad place, but at the same time loved every sordid minute of it. Phillip was staring into his empty bowl, scowling and smiling at the same time, as drops of his sweat clung to the edge of the counter like the fingertips of a man who wandered too close to the edge of the volcano. "I"ll have what he's having," I told the waiter. "Good," he said, "because that's all we have."

Bill: I remember that day. The bill of fare was just like "Bad Day at Black Rock". Chili with beans and chili without beans. Otis, the haggard old proprietor, asked me "Son, how are you feeling?" I remember all the pent up rage inside me. I was pining over a lost love who lived in Catalina or maybe it was Terminal Island. Well, I didn't want to answer him in an obvious, "rap him on the snout like a bad dog way." So instead, I clubbed him like a baby seal. You get the subtext, right?

Catalina. Anyone that read your original post would assume it was an analysis you did for a client.

Yes, I found this post to be confusing as well... Perhaps, Catalina, for future reference, if you wish to promote your services please do so in the "Your Stage" section of the Lounge. Or, I'm happy to move this thread for you if you would like. The craft and business forums are for topic discussion. Thanks. :)

Phillip - I get it. Like the first winter rain on a oily, potholed road. Like a boxcar of flowers on its way to the Rose Bowl Parade. And like the man whose lost love was Catalina, or might have been Catalina, or should have been Catalina. I forget now. A bowl of Nothing Soup for lunch every day for years does that to a man. Sitting next to you, I realized we were both there for the same reason. And that reason was Catalina. Like two hungry sharks, waiting for the same seal to jump off those rocks. One of us was going to revel in her nourishments and live for another week, and the other was going to suck and become as dead on the outside as it was on the inside - just like a bad writer whose on the nose dialogue couldn't make a hungry baby cry.

And the room mod entered just in the nick of... Scratch that. The mod entered in the Beth of time.

"in the Beth of time" - I am so using that!

@debbie I can tell you what will probably happen with this "strong saleable script". Most likely the same thing that happens with all the other spec scripts out there, a whole lotta nothing, LOL

Fiona - everything you need to know about subtext. The Balcony Scene from Annie Hall. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLblwVUEHyw

And then, of course, the "I Am a Writer" scene from Bergman's classic, Scenes from an Idiot's Marriage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NESWnzLGcH4

Sounds well and good but what is your interpretation about how dynamic you should make you're kid character's, let's say Disney tone, Family/Adventure. I'm getting close to completion of one and I was kind of wondering what attitudes are about/with "On The Nose" in regards to/RE: kid characters? Dialogue should naturally be the thing most need coverage on in my opinion. It's also the last step in my process before submitting stuff. It's also my opinion that "cute" substitutes that "strong" and we can get away with it making memorable kid character's. Maybe I'm wrong but if I am could you sight some good examples where kids use "Off The Nose" with the exception of maybe a science geek type, or intentional weird kid.

Fiona - I know I said this last week, but the Coin Toss scene in No Country for Old Men....pure brilliance. They're talking about one thing.... that really means something else.

Written By: Michael L. Burris- Excerpt and variation from a larger work. A: = Action/ C:= Character/ D:= Dialogue A: Emma sits by Billy, plays game. Mary begins to exit to back. C: Billy D: "When you going to return. C: Emma D: I’m still on my first turn. A: Mary laughs. C" Mary D: In just a few Billy. C: Emma D: What’s mom getting a few of. I want some cookies too. Why did she laugh at you? A: Billy shakes head. C: Billy D: Dumb girls You could do it with Billy saying to Mary “When you going to come back” as easily. Emma could say… C: Emma D: I’m not, I’m going this way, too many to head stomp if I come back to here. Ah heck now that I wrote this example I’ll probably be fine. It's just there is a lot of literal "On The Nose" dialogue with kid characters too. Anyway peace out and good luck all.

Michael, writing "kiddies" dialogue is an interesting challenge. The two important considerations here are: (1) the age of the child (character) and (2) the ability of the writer to be able to become that child (in character). I've read many scripts with cringe worthy kiddies dialogue - blah blah blah - the writer just can't shut up - on the nose - trying too hard. Ouch! Who's talking here? The kid or the writer? Poor kid, poor me! Writing children's dialogue is a difficult, but fantastic challenge to the writer. Most Important tip: SHUT UP, BE QUIET and LISTEN. Children - first and foremost - OBSERVE. They're more inclined to react through body language, mannerism and sub-text. When they do speak, they are truthful and--- WISE! You want to write good kiddies dialogue? SHUT UP! LISTEN. Keep it natural, spontaneous, and just leave the adult crap out of it!

So right, Brad - become the Watcher, the Observer - and LISTEN. Of course, bar talk can get a little "out of hand" shall we say - that's when you start to focus on the subtext - what is this guy really saying between the (loud, obnoxious, bravado) line - watch and observe his body language, mannerism and tone - what lies beneath? This is true sub-text!

Brad, I did an exercise once where I sat in chair in a bar, got out of my physical self and went to every character as I were them to observe the scene from different points of view directed at old self primarily. The displacement of one self to other self/not self can be a bit trippy but it really can give you some insight, what really surprises you though, is how much you don't necessarily pay attention to old self and find different nuances and focuses. I was going to write some arrogant titled thing called "Its All Me" but then realized it really isn't all that unique for writers, actors, directors to do, it can be fun and if you start laughing to yourself thinking you're crazy, well that's just normal.

To be a watcher, you've got to join The Watch catalina...lol cant wait for game of thrones to come back

Catalina - I appreciate your comments. Your feedback and own writing suggests you are someone who knows what they're doing. You embarrassed non (mentioned no names) and listed the strengths and weaknesses of the work you assessed. I've noticed the disconcerting presence on this site of Trolls in the guise of screenwriters - quick to denigrate any comment anyone makes, unless it's there own. One of the lessons I learned in the Army and in life is to work with winners - those willing to make things happen and to help you succeed - and to avoid those who work so hard at keeping things from happening. Keep on posting! And don't worry about the Trolls!

Michael L. Burris - fascinating stuff. You are intriguing, diverse - an interesting subject to observe, to study--- Hmm-- How about we - the writers - observe and study one Michael L. Burris in the bar -- Doing his "thing" -oneself/other self/not self/old self ---- What do you see? C'mon you guys! Use all 5 senses (including the sixth sense) and give me a short, snappy description line of scene - " Michael L Burris in the Bar - It's all Me." Complete with opening-middle-end. Let's have FUN!

Say, are you working on a post for the forum and have those pesky trolls sneaking in making discouraging, disparaging remarks. Worse yet, are they pretending to be screenwriters? Fear not! Just call Troll Trappers at 1-800-No troll (1-800-668-7655). We’ll simply trap and exterminate those trolls using our humane blowtorch technology. And we don’t ask any embarrassing questions.

Philip - You're hired!

Gilbert: Thanks for a great idea :). I saw a great business idea and jumped on it. As soon as I payoff the equipment loan, advertising costs and domain name - www.thetrolltrapper.com, I'm sending you some commission money. And 50% off on any trolls you want whacked... I mean humanely disposed of.

Ask Frodo maybe he can take you on an adventure to find the great False Fraudo, king of the troll trapper trappers.