Screenwriting : Rant for the day by Jeff Lyons

no gurus means there wouldn't be secondary income for unemployed Writers, fired Execs, freelanced Producers, website owners. How else can a person stay relevant in the business without actually being employed in the business?

Jeff: no disrespect intended, but both my astrologer and my tarot card reader say you're wrong. I'd elaborate more, but I'm running late for my spiritual cleansing.

A Guru can teach the craft but if someone is looking for the secret of success they won't find it because there are no secret of success. They have to work at it and pay their dues like everyone else that has any kind of success.

As Swami Beyondananda always used to say:

G

U

R

U

Gee, you are you.

Great rant Jeff, kudos! The only secret is to LISTEN. Forget your tarots Bill Costantini ;) here's a real trip someone showed me: Want to hear your inner voice? Try this. Plug your ears tight and start talking. You will hear your inner voice. Try it. It really works! That is why the word EAR is central to the word HEART. It knows the way already.

Both Dans--Gurus aren't the point :) It's the idea that "for just 29.95 I'll give you the top 10 secrets for making it in Hollywood, and for low price of 39.95 I'll throw in the top 5 secrets to making any story work"... gurus are crap. Teachers are great, consultants are great. I'm both ... and worth the price of admission :) ... but I have no secrets, secret sauce, or magic bullets. :) We all have to pay the rent... but TAKE YOUR HAND OUT OF MY BACK POCKET! :) Good teachers produce more teachers, not keep people students; consultants facilitate and help people be productive then move on, not suck people in to sales funnel, good therapists therapize themselves out of a job (people get better), not suck people into perpetual therapy. Dont' ever give your power away to anyone (I mean everyone reading this not you) ... get what you need... move on ... make sense????

Jeff. You said "stop looking for gurus" so how is that not the point. You aren't talking about the cost of beans or bananas are you? Now you say gurus are crap and teachers are great. Gurus are teachers so that statement makes zero sense.

Dan---What I'm talking about is stop looking for people who claim to be the answer ... whatever the answer is. Real teachers don't do that ... NEVER do that. There is a definite difference between a guru and a teacher as I'm using the term. One sucks you dry, the other empowers you. I'm not talking about the populist definition of guru, i.e., "an influential teacher or popular expert" ... I'm talking about the snake oil salesmen. The sad reality is that people give their power away to gurus (or experts)... the red flag that pushes a popular expert or teacher into the guru snake oil is when they tell you they have "the answer." I dont' know how to be clearer about this.

Jeff - you say your a teacher & consultant and infer that you are paid for your services. It's absolutely true that that you can not pay any one anything to be taught the secret word and the magic handshake to success of any kind - yet you collect payment for your services (I assume that you make no promises.) I'm old & retired from a reasonably successful career; I realize that much of my decades of experience and knowledge is outdated in the digital environment but I offer whatever knowledge/teachings I can to any/all who ask - for free. I was a young upstart many years ago and was fortunate in that a few of the generous old pros took me under their tutelage and mentored me for free. It makes me feel good to pay it forward. But gurus for a price - NO. (Most don't know what they're talking about anyway.)

Hey Doug :) ... not sure what you're saying. BTW... I'm no guru. :)

Jeff, I get you 100%. A guru is to keep you coming back for more, but a teacher will teach you until you have wings to fly on your own. It is the same with parenting, you want to teach your kids to be empowered to set sail on their own some day, not keep them trapped in a hopeless perpetual cycle of constant failures. I am more than happy to pay for quality script consulting, quality editing, quality teaching and anything else that is worth its salt.

SJ--Exactly.

I fell victim a couple of times early on to so called "gurus" who knew everything about screenwriting yet had zero to show for their talents and knowledge. Yes there are basic fundamentals you need to stick with but I've had idiots say they'd never read my script because I used present tense in a single action sentence to people who constantly tell me to re-write and NEVER be happy with your final draft. Everyone needs help but you need to learn to see the difference between help and hindrance.

Sadly, you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince (or princess).

I get it the feeling, I do. However, I would argue it all goes back to the adage attributed to the venerable Goldman, "Nobody knows anything." The flaw in your argument is that you don't know anything either.

Kay -- Ha... the "funny" thing about that quote ---which everybody uses to make the point that people don't know what they're talking about--- actually was made by Goldman to illustrate the point that nobody (including the studios) can ever really predict what audiences will like. It wasn't meant as a slap at know-it-alls. :) Soooo... maybe I know a little something :)

Jeff, generally I find that those who profess to be guru to be about as valuable as butt sweat - so I get your rant.... I also know many teachers/consultants who don't know their nose from a hole. I don't know that there's an answer.

Doug --- yep. Totally agree.

Hey Jeff my cousin's law firm paid over 6-figures for a three hour lunch with Guru tony Robbins. nobody complained about his fee.

Anyway, not sure I get your stance. If a service works for you, it's worth the money but when a service doesn't work, it is a scam. Over the years i hear and see folks complain about Black List website, contests, fellowships, webinars, pitchfests, online pitch skypes, even Stage 32 got a list of complaints - a whole lotta whiners.

Checkout the Acting scene. Plenty of "coaches". And the music business is the worst.

Okay, just trying to help. But you do you!

I got the secret formula that will tell you exactly which gurus are no good, and I'll share that with anybody who wants to avoid the scammers -- for a minor admin cost.

Haha Pierre, exactly. Dan MaxXx I can tell you inituitively that Tony Robbins would have no doubt said sth to the effect of look there is a path to success and a path to falure, I can give you a map to success but you are going to have to take the necessary steps to get there.

Jeff. A guru is a teacher so you are using the term wrong. Syd Field, Robert McKee, David Trottier and Blake Snyder are all gurus and they are all teachers. It is obvious you are confusing gurus with "snake oil salesmen" and I would have agreed with you that people shouldn't believe it when they make impossible claims.

I don’t use gurus, teachers, script consultants or anyone else so I am not looking for the secret of success or anything else.

Dan--- we're just going to hve to disagree on this one :)

Dan Maxx--Okay ... I guess this was confusing for people ... don't know any other way to state it so... there it is I guess :) This is why I dont' sell cars.

I think the term "guru" has a bit of a double meaning - it can be complimentary/full of praise, or it can be pejorative/mocking. You obviously have to consider who is using the term, and in what context. Most of the time, at least by people who post here on Stage32, the meaning is the latter.

I pretty much got to stand in Dan G's corner on this one. I teach/mentor, but all for free - so I can't be called a snake oil salesman. The only promise I make is that success requires a lot of dedication & hard work - there certainly is no secret handshake or magic word.

In marketing circles, you get bombarded with these type of pitches all day long - "The top ten secrets to optimizing sales - guaranteed!!" There is no guaranteed sales pitch of success. Just as there is no formula that guarantees you will become a successful screenwriter if you follow these suggestions. Key word- suggestion. Teachers or Guru's focus on the standard practices and what they have found to be the most effective manner in which to construct a story idea into a eye-catching cinematic vision.

Doug---You and Dan are certainly not in my crosshairs in this regard ... I don't put you anywhere near that Guru company ... there are plenty of great consultants who are on S32 who I do not include in my rant! Danny Manus, Regina Lee, Uncle Phil, you and others. Just want you to know that.

jeff are there writing teachers in LA calling themselves GURUS? Dime them out If you think they are damaging the teaching trade.

I would call a guru as someone who mystifies the process and a teacher as someone who demystifies the process. They are total opposites

Dan M--HA! ... not my job. People have to manage their own behavior :) Easiest solution is for writers to stop giving their power away to experts/gurus/teachers/gas station attendants... whoever.

SJ--once again... exactly.

Use what you can from the "gurus, teachers, consultants" if you must use them at all. For me, I'll get a good understanding of the playing field, then just give me the ball and stay out of the way. It's up to me and no one else.

Storytelling is an art with guidelines - not firm rules or cookie cutter structures. You can argue semantics all day, but it is basically unproductive blather. Learn the art, be yourself, and just do it.

Jeff. The only thing I believe we disagree on is the term guru. I never really gave a rat’s rectum about them so I had to google screenwriter guru and here is the link I found.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screenwriting_%22gurus%22 It may describe them or maybe not.

I don’t use gurus, script consultants or take classes from teachers or even read any of their blogs or read how to books. So, it really doesn’t make any difference to me what they do or call themselves.

People that pay gurus are usually the same people that give their screenplays away for free. I don't do either of those things.

My motto: "Try everything, listen to everyone, follow no one. You are your own guru." Go chip that into the sidewalk.

Jeff. That is a good motto except I don't listen to other people. For better or worse I just do things my own way so I guess you can say I am my own guru.

hey Jeff, does your motto include paying consultants? Most Gurus/Teachers don't want to share their knowledge for free. And the few Writers who share their knowledge for free - Brian koppleman, javier marxuach, Jeffrey Lieber, Gennifer Hutchison - they have produced movies & TV shows to back their advice. When in doubt, look at a Guru/teacher/consultant's current and past credits.

Claude. I don't remember saying you should do that. I said I don't do that and I don't know or care what other screenwriters out there do. Personally I think producers are taking advantage of screenwriters that do that and it hurts the market so I don't have anything to do with those producers. As far as gurus go I don't use them or buy their books so I don't care what they do either.

Claude: You're not handing over your screenplay for free, though. The producer who is optioning it is (hopefully) going to work many hours to try and get someone who has the financing to buy your script and pay for the film to get made. Or the producer is going to attach talent to it that will make the project more desirable for studios/financiers. And you're establishing a value (sale price) in that option.

While that may sound like a bubble-burster to you, that's the way the business runs for writers who are trying to break into the business these days, and for established writers at times as well.

When you're established in the business; have lots of studio/financier connections who will take your calls; have access to talent to attach to your script; and can raise money to make films (like Dan Guardino), then you can do what you want. Until then, though, you can avoid the Script Cemetery and maybe make it to Production Heaven by understanding the way things work, and embracing those beliefs.

Good Luck and Happy Trying-To-Wrap-Your-Head-Around-That, Claude.

MAY THE HEAVENS BLESS THE VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES/LOVED ONES OF THE LAS VEGAS SHOOTING TRAGEDY.

Claude. I don't handover my screenplays for free either. People that do that are hurting themselves and the market. I wonder how they are going to feel after they pay their dues, get an agent and have to compete with people who are willing to give away their work for free.

Dan: no disrespect intended, but someone who has an agent is probably a lot, lot, lot more talented as a writer than the aspiring writers who might have a script or two, and who think that if one writes a couple scripts that they are going to sell them quickly and for big money; who have no connections; and who don't understand the reality of the business for people in their shoes.

MAY THE HEAVENS BLESS THE VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES/LOVED ONES OF THE LAS VEGAS SHOOTING TRAGEDY.

That's when all the fun starts...

Bill. No disrespect taken. Other people can do what they want with their screenplay. I just won’t handover one of mine for free.

Gilberto - will you work for yourself for free? Both Dan G and I lean more toward the production side now. Scripts that I write, I give to myself for production (I suspect Dan does too). My point being that if you appreciate the value of what you write; why not produce it yourself? If you are a mercenary writer with no experience - it's gonna be a long hard road.

Bill. You can accomplish the same thing by just giving them a letter so they can shop the screenplay and if they get lucky then they can option it. That way you don’t have to take it off the market. They will usually agree to that because it isn’t costing them anything.

Another way is make it yourself. You can attach a director who can help you attach a good actor or two and raise some development money. Then you can raise production money to pay off the original investors if they don’t want to stay in. Of course it would be harder to do that if the budget was too high so if someone wanted to try that they should probably try to keep the budget under a couple of million dollars.

Doug. Yes that is the way I am leaning as well. I wrote two screenplays with Judy Norton that we are going to produce. My Agent has an investor that is looking at the project so we have are fingers crossed. If you ever watched "The Waltons" television series Judy played the eldest Walton daughter Mary Ellen.

Doug - I'm a writer - not a producer, a financier, or a director. I love to write. I focus on writing and writing alone and I have plenty on my plate to keep me busy. And all of my writing pays for itself and more - so I don't even work for myself for free!

I follow some of the gurus because I feel I need instruction on screenwriting. There are only two that I really follow--Blake Snyder and Richard Walter. I feel I can really learn from them because they actually wrote screenplays at some point in their lives.

Roselle Zubey I think I am the only one who actually 100% gets what Jeff is talking about. He isn't saying there's anything wrong with getting instruction on screenwriting. He is just saying Cavat Emptor, Let the Buyer Beware of "Gurus", gurus who aren't really rooting for your success but want to keep you perpetually coming back for more and depleting you of your hard-earned cash in the process. If a "Teacher" is really any good, then they will only keep teaching you until you are able to fly on your own. Then their job is complete and they will be happy for you.

I think this rant doesn't even sound like a real rant to me.

Jeff, name the gurus who you think is giving your business and profession a bad service.

I am amused, Every consultant on stage 32 is great, the webinars are awesome. It's just the other sites with those "other consultants" that suck.

Ugh, is right! Lol! ;) It seems personal definitions and cognitive biases are convoluting this discussion. If you refer to the objective, dictionary definition of "guru" it says: 1) a spiritual teacher, especially one who imparts initiation, and 2) an influential teacher or popular expert. A guru is a teacher. Now if I'm not mistaken, Jeff is ranting at those who perhaps seek more from gurus, have an unhealthy, unrealistic, illogical notion, and/or false expectation about screenwriting overall. That is not the fault of the "guru," but rather the fault of the "follower." Yes, there are some individuals out there who are just in it for the money, who are con artists, taking advantage of others—for $29.95, I'll make you a Hollywood writer!!! Really? C'mon, people... And, yes, there are teachers who are better than others, who are altruistic. But even altruistic teachers charge money too. Sell books. Charge for classes. Gotta make a living. But you... YOU must do your own due diligence. Be self responsible. Be informed. Why throw out blanket statements and condemn all teachers and/or all gurus just because there are some bad apples. And if I'm also not mistaken, the term "guru" is usually GIVEN to someone... it's a label. And because of those bad apples it seems it has become an unfortunate label to bear. Many do not refer to themselves in that manner. My simple advice about experts and different approaches and various information is this: Keep an open mind. Do research. Be informed. Utilize all resources available to you (libraries are free). Take what works for you, discard the rest. Have realistic expectations. Gee, sounds easy, right? ;)

Amen!

Great comment Beth Fox Heisinger . Over here, though I would say "guru" definitely has negative connotations. It's a person who sets themselves up as someone to be idolized. A teacher is more like a mentor, instructor or coach...they are building you up, not the other way round.

Beth: not to put you on the spot, but you'd be doing a great service to aspiring writers by naming the con artists who are taking advantage of writers, as would Jeff (not to put you on the spot either, Jeff....but you did start this, after all).

Please name them - remember, it's just your opinion, and nobody could sue you for libel or defamation by doing so. Crikey...I'll even pay for your legal fees if that happens. I love it when con artists get crushed.

There used to be a website....I think its name was Writersbeware.com...that listed companies that scammed writers. I'm pretty sure all those companies were even sued by writers, and some were even class-action lawsuits. I don't think it's still around. Too bad.

MAY THE HEAVENS BLESS THE VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES/LOVED ONES OF THE LAS VEGAS SHOOTING TRAGEDY.

Again, "guru" is usually a term given to someone, a label. Not usually something someone calls her/himself. Just for example only... Robert McKee, often labeled a "guru," calls himself a screenwriting lecturer and instructor. Writer/director Peter Jackson has lauded him as “The Guru of Gurus.” "Guru" meaning an influential teacher or popular expert. S.J. you seem to have your own personal definition. Look, as with all labels, it's often best to ignore them, push past reductive terms, find more information about the person and consider that person as an individual: her/his expertise, experience, approach, offerings, etc. Read what others think/have experienced/feel about the person before engaging or paying for some service or mentoring or book or instruction. And if someone is idolized, then perhaps that's because of those who idolize. That's not necessarily the fault of the person of whom is being lauded. ;) Sure, again, there may be some that use the term facetiously or may use it as some sort of ploy. But why make blanket negative assumptions about everyone else who just happens to be labeled a guru? Perhaps consider all experts/teachers/mentors/instructors/consultants individually. ;)

Bill, I'm not going to name names for many reasons. My point here is to talk about the term as a label, and to encourage people to do their own due diligence. Be open minded. Plus much of this could be a matter of personal opinion. I'm always happy to share my opinion, thoughts, information and experience (if applicable) about a service or a contest or a listing website or a pitching website or a book or a class or a webinar or whatever when members post questions asking about various options that are out there. ;)

Beth and Jeff: I apologize for asking you to out people. It's better to be positive than negative. I personally know - first-hand and second-hand - that there are many qualified folks in the script consultant field, and in the publishing fields. I've named many of them in past posts. I hope all of the aspiring/novice writers, in doing their due diligence, know who they are, too - it's not difficult to find them.

Hi Beth, not my own personal definition. Guru does has negative connotations...read charlatan, extortioner, false idol etc. For discussion's sake I looked into the etymology of the word... it means "a purveyor of shadows"..."gu" meaning shadows, "ru" meaing one who disperses them. Also from Wikiquote: In the United States, the meaning of "guru" has also been used to cover anyone who acquires followers, especially by exploiting their naiveté, due to the inflationary use of the term in new religious movements. That is what i gathered it to mean over the years too.

While I think Jeff has certainly sparked a lively debate, all I really think he was trying to say is that there are good and bad apples everywhere, so beware the bad i.e. the gurus

Man....I wish I still had the book "The Meaning of Dreams" written around 1890 by a fellow named Dr. William. The pioneering book was really an ad for his product "Pink Pills for Pale People." It had "testimonials" on every page from "people" who swore by the effectiveness of the pills. What a genius. That style of marketing/advertising - offering someone a book about "this", when you really want them to buy "that" - is very popular in today's marketplaces, and especially on the Internet. I'm sure you've all seen it used time and time again, and especially on the dozens of websites aimed at writers.

That book taught me everything I needed to know about how to navigate through the world. Heh-heh.

GO CUBSSSSSS!

Hey, Bill, if you want names, screenwriter Joe Eszterhas thinks Robert Mckee is a fraud and Joe made that claim almost ten years ago. If you go on twitter and ask A-List screenwriters, they all generally look down at script consultants/Gurus and the consultation business. But since this is show biz, you don't really hear much slamming from Insiders. Everybody's scared, worried about career, money, and blowback. Whistle Blowers end up unemployed. You're seeing it now with the Harvey Weinstein scandal. So I guess the script consultation business has its own rules and folks in it don't out their own.

I'm on the fence since I want to be a well paid script consultant one day. It's just hard to make a living writing entertainment. Gotta find a secondary source of income and talking about movies and screenwriting can't be too hard. I see plenty of successful youtube critics with 0 film experience analyze movies from a basement couch.

S.J. In the industry Screenwriting Guru has a different meaning than just a Guru. Jeff sparked debate because he doesn't like Screenwriting Gurus. A lot of people in this business including Gurus, Script Consultants, Teachers claim to have special knowledge and make money off the backs of aspiring screenwriters. I am not saying that is a bad thing. Some if not most gurus, teachers and script consultants can help aspiring screenwriters become a better screenwriter. Since the odds of someone making money as a screenwriter are in the one in 5,000 range nobody can guarantee success. It normally takes a lot more than just being a good screenwriter to succeed in this business. Lady luck and who you know probably play the biggest roles.

I'm a guru. I wake up each morning, look into the mirror and say, "Uncle Phil, where the hell are we going today?" My reflection looks back and says, "Wherever the f*#k I say we're going."

In any case, someone is always trying to sell you the secret to writing or investing or every other kind of success. The key in equation, is there's a lot of free information about every subject known to mankind, and some unknown on the worldwide web. So suck up the free stuff and be very selective about what you pay for. For the price, I'd say you can't go wrong with recorded Masterclass seminars hosted by Aaron Sorkin and David Mamet. I may even pay for one of those one day.

Dan M - I too know a few showrunners (active & retired) who agree. I won't publicly name names ('cuz it's rude) and they also think Blake Snyder did more to damage the art of screenwriting more than any other human being. I agree - and you can use my name.

S.J. Sure, we can break down every facet of the word and its use. But we're referring to its use within the context of screenwriting and those who either lecture or teach or coach or mentor, and are considered influential experts in their respected field(s.) Plus I have no idea what "the gurus" means? Who are "the gurus?" So you're saying that all gurus are bad or are bad apples? That implies a personal opinion/bias about a group of people, who perhaps at no fault of their own have been labeled by others as a guru. Perhaps a label given with the intent of respect, not given as an insult or accusation (Peter Jackson example).

And, I wholeheartedly agree, people need to do their own due diligence before engaging with any individual person or individual service. ;)

However we should acknowledge that this is two-sided: some people may have unhealthy, unrealistic expectations and bring their own misgivings, misunderstandings and personal issues into the mix. Which is what I thought Jeff's original post or "rant" is really about—people who may illogically think screenwriting (or life or happiness) is just a one-step program to big success and this one person (who may be a well-intended, honest teacher or "guru") holds the key.

Look, personally, I am not invested in any one expert, nor am I invested in this term. Truly. Sorry to have pushed this issue. I'm not trying to argue with anyone. There's no right or wrong here. Only discussion. Just making broader considerations to reductive generalizations. Things are often more complex than they may seem. ;) Best to you!

I'm not worried about retribution, or what people think about me, but I have pictures of Dan MaxXx wearing a Chicago Cubs hat and singing "Go, Cubs, Go! in a Jersey bar.

GO CUBSSSSSS!

stop it Bill, I haven't been to Jersey since the Bada Bing club closed. RIP Tony Soprano. He never saw the bullet.

MaxXXy:

Bada Bing? Forget about it! Best titty bar of all time. I stopped going to them after that. I mean, what's the point?

Dan: RIP, Frank Vincent, too, who died a few weeks ago. What a great actor.

And Uncle Phil really is a Buddhist monk, and at one of the highest levels: he's a maha-thera. It was his birthday a few weeks ago, and man, was he happy when he opened my birthday gift to him. It was an empty box, and when he looked in it and saw nothing, Uncle Phil smiled and said "thank you - it's just what I always wanted!"

GO CUBSSSSS!

Bill C:

I'm enjoying nothing very much. And, more importantly, go CUBSSSSS!

I now declare this thread officially hijacked.

Uncle Phil: Seeer-iously, though....hope nothing happened to Jeff....and that none of those struggling gurus abducted him or anything. He never abandons forum topics that he started, and....whoa...wait a minute.....let me read this text....oh that's great....my informed sources tell me that Jeff has been chosen to be Vince's new sidekick and is busy taping Shamwow! commercials.

That's great to know - I love those all-in-one chamois/towel/sponges!

GO CUBSSSSSS!

Bill dont fudge with Jeff. I hear he is the Walter White of the consultant business.

https://youtu.be/jmNU8blUwms

just kidding, Jeff! I dont want to end up in a ditch in Van Nuys. :)

Dan: that's bad. Speaking of bad, Abel Ferrara said you were his inspiration for Bad Lieutenant. And I was dumb enough to believe you sold pillow cases.

GO CUBSSSSS!

Well gentlemen, and ladies, it's been swell chatting to y'all, but it's fri night and time to have some fun, so hijack if you must. Will have to stick with what i know, it hasn't wronged me so far... (^^,) peace and love to all xx

Dan M-- There's a ditch at the Van Nuys Flyaway with your name on it... just sayin'...

Finally...the demise of my nemesis....first it happens slowly....then it happens fast....very fast....

GO CUBSSSSSS!