Screenwriting : When is it time to tell a screenwriter to quit? by Annie Mac

Annie- what makes you qualify to judge a person has writing talent or not?

If someone has a dream, then they have hope. Unless we have something to look forward to, our hope dies. Never quash someone's dream. It's up to them.

Hope this is kosher but the scriptnotes podcast (John August's podcast) addressed this exact topic in episode 320 "Should I give up?".

You can find it here for free download:

http://scriptnotes.net/page/1/size/10

It's about an hour total.

Thanks guys, great responses. Dan, I just asked the question and you answered with a question. Go figure...

Chad thanks. I'll certainly check your link.

Annie, who are we to tell someone not to write? Where a writer "should be?" That depends on someone's individual goals or what they deem to be "success" for them. "Success" is relative. It's perfectly fine to write screenplays for the sake of writing, for practice, for personal enjoyment, for fun, to hone your craft. Maybe that person has zero interest in being a screenwriter for hire, but rather is interested in making their own films. Now if you are dealing with someone who cannot be objective about their own work, who cannot consider that it may be time to park a project for the moment and move on to the next, or that person is hard to deal with, then I would suggest you kindly say you feel that you cannot help them any further and wish them the best. If you are concerned that someone is delving into unhealthy territory, then talk about other avenues of writing, other mediums. That they should perhaps reconsider their endeavors. Screenwriting may not be a good fit, but perhaps some other creative form might be. However that should be determined or best realized by the individual, not you, not me. It's perfectly fine to move on to something else, and it is not a failure to do so. Or consider this... perhaps all this struggle is the natural process of developing as a writer. It takes years and years and lots and lots of hard work, does it not? Don't cut someone off at the knees because they don't fit into your or my ideal. Let's not impose upon someone else. That can be so damaging. Point to other possibilities. Talk about hard truths. Bring up concerns and considerations. But the decision is ultimately theirs to make. Hope that helps. ;) Oh, and the Scriptnotes podcast is great. John August and Craig Mazin share such helpful insights. I often look to them for a voice of reason. Lol!

Annie. An agent once told me I had no talent and I was wasting my time and should go do something else. He might have been right about that, but I decided I would continue writing screenplays anyway because I really enjoyed writing them and didn’t really give a rat’s rectum if I made money doing it or not. Since that time, I sold a couple of screenplays, wrote a few on assignment, worked as a Staff Writer and as a Script Consultant for a couple of Production Companies. I am not claiming much success but if I listened to that Agent I wouldn’t have even gotten as far as I did.

No one can dictate who you are. You are who you find yourself to be. If that's a writer then so be it. Not everyone is going to be a Spielberg or Mamet. If the Idea they have is solid and they have a good story telling style then that's ...what screen writers are for. lol Its a harder route and more expensive but Ghost writers are out there.

The time to tell a screenwriter to quit is before they get started. Once they're into it, they become hopeless cases.

Beth, I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!

You peeps are telling me what I wanted to hear. Cheers for screenwriters of all stripe.

Basically, it's never the time to tell a writer to quit. There are times that each of us ask ourselves if it's worth continuing along our chosen path, but it's our decision to make. It's never for anyone else to make.

Apologies Anna, didn't mean to ask a question to your ques.

Here Is my advice. Tell clients to stop paying for script gurus, readers, coverag reports. Save money, write a cheap short movie they can do with friends and shoot. Save like $500. Cast local actors and crew, learn by hands on experience filmmaking.

Start doing 5min movies with 5 page scripts, then 10min movies with 10page scripts... with the goal of 80mins (feature length) with 80 page script.

Tell clients writing scripts is useless if they dont know filmmaking.

Maybe clients will discover a job that is film related. earn $$$ while actually being in the film business.

Thanks Dan for your very practical tips. Most that I actually practiced myself with my short films, years ago and I still find it sound advice.

I was a writing teacher at 3 major NYC colleges. Many students asked, "Do I have talent? Should I just quit and stop fooling myself?" Dan Guardino's answer rings true: "As long as you ENJOY writing, keep on." With practice and a commitment to the craft -- and the love for it -- you do get better.

If I listened to everyone who told me no or that I couldn't do anything I would never accomplished much. I don't listen to pros or anyone else unless they want to pay for my work. A lot of so-called pros have done jack and shit in their lives. March to your own drummer and try to create art. And then try to find someone who gets it and god forbid, make a film.

Bless you Uncle Phil"

I read LOT of bad screenplays, but instead of telling these writers to give up, I give them pointers on what they need to work on. If they're truly passionate about it, giving up is not an option!

Thanks, CJ -- In short it would be something like: quit listening to doom and gloom, listen to the small voice inside your heart, surround your self with empowering peeps, and keep writing...

I believe this is not quite the place to advertise, is it?

Annie- so what are you gonna advise your clients? Since you are in the business of script consulting, how do you navigate between profit (getting paid to give feedback) and knowing your feedback is of any good to writers? What's your background experience in Entertainment biz (american market) ? Thanks.

Dan, though I have experience in acting and directing, in screenwriting, and producing, as well as mothering, I am in the business of helping creative people find their unique voice and reach their potential. Producers have more expertise in the American market. When I lived in LA I met many producers and understood their perspective, mine is to be a bridge over the sometimes troubled waters of creation vs marketability. I hope I somehow responded to your question. Thanks for your interest.

Annie, I commend you for the brave and honest question. You provoke some real honest responses and reactions. Well done.

Chad " Hope this is kosher but the scriptnotes podcast (John August's podcast) addressed this exact topic in episode 320 "Should I give up?". You can find it here for free download: http://scriptnotes.net/page/1/size/10 It's about an hour total." #Stage32 should post this!

Thanks Michael. I appreciate.

Move on to another project, put the "bad" on hold. If the story is good but poorly crafted it's never going beyond the reader. Reworking the plot, synopsis and logline might be the move to make as well as answering these questions: Would I go see this film? If I'm an actor, would I want to play the lead role?

Getting back to the original question. Never because if they are writing screenplays because they love writing them they will continue no matter what you say. If they do it because they want to make money the odds are they will quit on their own when it doesn't happen. No matter who good of a script consultant is 99.9% or their clients will never make any money writing screenplays. That isn't me being doom and gloom it is me telling how it really is.

Guardino, You may have a point in a very general way, yet, I beg to differ. At least two of my clients made money with their scripts and one is close to do so.

Fleurette, thanks for your input!

Annie. Then they are doing above average. Only about one if 4,000 make money writing screenplays.

I love that! Thanks CJ

Passions, dreams and values are different in every being. Writing is not all about money. For some it's joy . Like breathing in air ... It's life.

Migraines shot at me when I read your cold comment. I've taken the liberty to paste what I consider a sinking sand.

Comment by Claude Gagne (In part)

"Every hour you spend writing, is an hour taken from your life...It's your life you are continuing to waste away. Reward yourself by walking away from an unrealistic dream, just like it would be to walk away from buying lottery tickets. It's a gamble. Are you definitely ready to waste your life away?"

Whats the point of this forum for you, Claude Gagne?

Anyone here who quit on the first day they started a job that had to be learned? If it's a yes perhaps it won't be your last. We could do with a little less negativity in this thread or none at at all.

I would never tell anyone to quit. If they don't "have it," it doesn't mean they never will. It just means they don't have it right now.

Too often we put a time limit on our success, and when we don't reach our goal in the time we set, we quit. Why? Why do we do that to ourselves? To others? That is a horrible thing to do. Then we beat ourselves up and tell ourselves that we suck.

NO. NO YOU DON'T.

It's taken me YEARS to get good at this. I'm sure, for many others, it's taken far less time. If I had given up, I'd be miserable. This is a journey, and everyone's journey is different.

If you hold the space for the writer so they can nurture the process, that will go miles further than looking at them like they're not good enough to succeed. Hold the space for them to grow. If that means they take a break, awesome. But never tell someone they're not built for this. That's your judgment based on your experiences. The greatest gift you can give them is permission to live out their passions.

Fleurette, I guess that Claude has experienced many cruel disappointments. I didn't find his comment cold, but disillusioned. We all go through periods of profound doubt. Thankfully, we can rise above it. Many, many screenwriters have shown great generosity and I find a lot more positive comments and support in this thread. I'm also happy people feel free to express where they're at, at a given moment. Keep smiling!

Here is a guy who waited patiently for 50 years to see his idea become a movie. gotta hang out with working filmmakers. Script consultants & Readers don't make movies for a living.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/screenwriter-lp-leung-on-his-chines...

I think as long as you see the work itself as the reward you should probably keep going. While not everyone has the potential to be a great screenwriter (I certainly don't), everyone has the potential to be a BETTER screenwriter.

In all honesty, I hate screenwriting. I write only because I love filmmaking, and I can't really expect someone else to write for me. The reward is in taking a project from development to distribution. I'm still very early in my learning curve, and I'm getting old... But I'm never gonna stop, because eventually I'll be the best filmmaker I can be. Even if my best is only crappy B, or C, or Z, or whatever features that I have to self-distribute online. That won't happen if I quit.

That's not to say that one shouldn't have the ambition to learn, to improve, to turn it into a career, and to make money. I'm of the opinion that this stuff is too expensive and too hard to just be a hobby. But the career and the money need to be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

All power to you, Jacob! Thank goodness there's room for all of us in this industry provided we are passionate and have the gumption to stay the course.

Dan, I applaud you for sharing this amazing interview. For all of us who'll never quit, it is an empowering story of determination and grit.

But I'm baffled by the low opinion you seem to have for consultants and readers. Correct me if I'm wrong. FYI most of them, at least the ones I personally know, do actually write scripts, make movies, and even act in movies. They have one thing in common they are movie lovers and that love is above the need for $$$. Though they are human and need it too.

"Staying the course" can be anything... Produce a film yourself—that's another avenue, another possibility. Make a short. Get together with friends and local creatives. Become a filmmaker. You've worked hard, put in the time, now have some fun! Bring something to fruition. Have that experience. Get involved in local film festivals. Post your film on YouTube. Start a YouTube series. Sites like Short of the Week.com feature great work! There are so many options. You don't need anyone's or "Hollywood's" or "The Industry's" permission or approval to write or to make a film. ;)

Annie, I don't have any issues with Script Consultants or Readers. I just have an issue of unqualified folks labeling themselves as Script Consultants or Readers. But hey, maybe we just have a different life experience. I have my own opinion of what "The Industry" means and what a Script Consultant should have as evidence they know what they are doing. Evidence like produced movies, TV experience, Development years at a legit Prod Co or Studio, or Network. Union memberships to PGA, WGA, Academy, IATSE, DGA. Legit credits, not award winning short movies at festivals. Their tax returns should say "WRITER" in the occupation line. It's called "Show Business" for a reason.

Are you also a tax inspector on your spare time, Dan? I love your sense of humor.

Thanks CJ, I never said I was a professional. I'm just a hobbyist with some years in Los Angeles. I know less than you do.

Everything Claude said is true, and I give him a lot of respect and credit for hanging in there all those years. Screenwriting is one of the hardest business there is to break into and I don’t think any less of someone who decides to walk away from it. I do understand his frustration because screenwriting is an extremely negative business. Screenwriters are some of the most intelligent and talented people in the business yet they have to work so hard to try and impress those that usually aren't as intelligent and more often than not don't have any talent. If people just want to hear positive things this is the wrong business to be in.

I am new to this, but in my limited experience in screenwriting, it is still a business. If the content is owned. Try to produce it yourself, distribute via online platforms, and try AFM later. I am sure there are niche markets like any other business. By all means correct me if I'm wrong.

My heart breaks when I read Claude's account of his experience. Yes we all ask the hard questions as all artists must. If we listen mindfully, we get a yes or a no. May we be brave enough to follow our inner guides and if we are lucky to have a wise, knowledgeable, supportive mentor, along the way, lets also hear what he, or she has to say without losing hope and honoring our deepest drives.

Owen, you mean he didn't reply yet?

Here is another take I just received in synchronicity with our inquiry, the end of an interview with Ken Myamoto, see if any of it helps. "So, Again, Should You Quit?

I have three answers for you.

Never, because that answer will push those meant to be screenwriters further and harder.

Sometimes, because some of you are destined for bigger and better things beyond screenwriting — but at least you lived the dream.

Always, because on this screenwriting journey you will “quit” multiple times. It’s inevitable with the amount of rejection and heart break involved. But each time you do, you’ll reset and maybe find that the dream is still calling you."

There are plenty of show biz jobs besides writing. And yes, quit screenwriting if you are not enjoying it. Go write books or a play. I couldn't play college Basketball but I volunteered to be an asst coach & videotaped games. Who knows? Maybe hanging out with working people in show biz, you will discover another job equally rewarding

I would not dare imply anything about God, Owen. This is a business between you and your maker. I was not speaking about Claude specifically. Sorry if I what I wrote was not clear enough, or are you kidding me?

Owen, I misunderstood you. I thought the sentence you put in bold was your own... I prefer to let go of this part of the conversation. If Claude has something to say, I hope he feels free to do so.

When I feel a bit down I think about JK Rowling and how long it took for her to strike lucky, because that's what it is - LUCK. (Of course talent is part of it).

My 1st agent gave up on me with my books but instead of taking the BIG hint, I started my 3rd book.

As I started my 'map' for my book I thought it prudent to send my synopsis for my 1st book to a couple of publishers before I get too involved with my 3rd project. So off went my synopsis to supposedly closed doors and - bingo; I scored. Not only with book 1, but book 2 quickly followed. They are with Penguin/Random House and book 3 was published with Strand Publishing.UK.

I changed from books to screenwriting and I wrote an adaptation of book 1, which caught the eye of two prodcos; one of them optioned it and I found a new agent to handle proceedings. My agent told me to continue writing to build a script portfolio because when the work is produced I should have other scripts to hand simply because people will be interested and ask, 'What else have you got?'

I soon realised I must continue to get my work out there because that's my job - not my agent's job. So here I am, hoping for Lady Luck to intervene and hoping that nobody tells me I'm crap at what I do.

A friend of mine has worked as a reader for a production company for years while trying to get his own sold in the past 20 years. He has since found his niche in writing one act plays and has had them bought/performed by small production companies and schools world wide. He is thrilled. I consider myself very lucky. It's taken "only" two years to be hired and six years to see my script made into a film. (Which is only geting a release date at last, early 2018!) Yes I've gotten a foot in the door thanks to friends in the industry (and sadly that seems to be the chief way in) and I have yet to have one of my own spec scripts made or sold, but I enjoy the collaboration and challenge of taking someone else's ideas and turning them into a workable script. If I get enough of a name in my field, then maybe I'll be asked about what I have in my files to produce!

Claude, all the very best for your new project!!! I'm glad if anything in this thread inspired you.

Claude. The pros out-weigh the cons. We all get rejections and that is part of the business. A spec screenplay is a screenwriter calling card so if someone reads your screenplay it did what it was supposed to do. If they pass on it they aren't rejecting the screenwriter they are just passing on the screenplay so it should s not be taken personally. You should always thank them for taking the time to read your screenplay and let them be the first to know when you finish your next one.

As you know by now this is a who you know business. Almost every script that got produced happened because the screenwriter knew someone. Also, one of the biggest reasons someone can’t sell a screenplay is because they don’t have a track record. Unfortunately they can’t get a track record because they can’t sell a screenplay. It really is a catch twenty-two. One way to get around this is to attaching known Directors to your best screenplays. You can use their contacts and credits to help market your screenplays. Most producers know that a well-known director can help them get actors on board which helps raise funding and it always comes down to money which is why the call this "Show Business." Anyway, you probably know a lot of this BS already but I hope it might help you break through that wall they built to try and keep us out.

A writer doesn't dream of riches & fame.

A true writer longs to leave behind a piece of themselves. (C.K. Webb)

Veronica. That is a good philosophy.