Screenwriting : "Derivative" screenplays by Toby Tate

Can you share some context? What did the reviewer(s) find to be derivative... or not? And I agree, they should give an example, at least to further clarify. Any chance of a back-and-forth discussion with said reviewer(s)? Find out what and why?

Sounds like they are giving 'an easy rejection line' - all things are different to each person - if they don't give detail, move on to those who like it and find out what they like about it and build on that...

That's the problem, Beth - they never say WHAT they find to be derivative. Out of the dozens of pitches I've done, only a handful have said this, but never give examples. I think one person said, "Well, we've seen the whole haunted house thing before," except it's not a haunted house movie. Nobody gets possessed, so it's not a possession movie. It doesn't have zombies, or vampires, or werewolves. It does have some ghost-like apparitions, but it's not really a ghost story, per se. It's based on Native-American mythology used in a way I've never seen done, and also based on a true story that no one has ever made a movie about. So - I don't know.

Ah, Toby, that's the problem - your script is too original and nobody wants to be the first to do it. It is too risky and execs want sure things. Stuff they have seen and know works.

Keep moving forward. This game takes years, even for established brands. Scott Frank wrote "Godless" twenty years ago and finally got made and released last year.

I agree this process is flawed by nay sayers. There is no standard. You are just as likely to get a 1 or a 5 for the same pitch category depending on reviewer. My latest pitch input :

A well known producer did a budget analysis for implementing this script with filming in Louisiana and New Mexico. The detailed spread sheet with 7% contingency and 25% rebate came to $269,960.

To which the industry pro replied: “Shoot this for 0k? As a producer I find it quite unrealistic.”

A friend of mine who was in the business says "People are always looking for reasons to say NO." Sometimes it's just that simple. It's frustrating, but if you believe in what you've written, disregard the naysayers UNLESS they give you legit feedback that hits home with you in some way. If it doesn't hit home, if you don't immediately find yourself saying "Wow, that criticism rings true", then ignore it and keep on pushing!

some people who are in the business of reading and reviewing scripts feel have to say something to justify a rejection ....a lot of times the critique is not all that helpful in my opinion. Also you have people that say they like it , but are still not interested. And this is only for the pitch part. I truly don't get why someone would say they like the pitch but don't want to even look at the script. One person said I revealed too much of the plot in my pitch and ruined his interest. I guess you still have people looking for a so called "high concept" which to me is a flawed pursuit. A lot of these "high concepts" turn out to be real lemons with nowhere to go in the execution stage.

Toby, a great spect script always finds an owner. Don't stop sending it out. Ignore the rejections, and keep a record of who reads it and gets back to you with something positive. They're the one that you need to stay in touch with. Because they're the one that will most likely pay attention as your work gets better. Just don't stop.

If in dozens pitches only a handful didn’t like it you should be happy! Remember “Memento”? Christopher Nolan said that even when the movie was done, many distributors refused to pick it up saying “what is this?”! Nobody knows what people will like, so follow your instinct and push for it!

Francisco, normally I would agree, but the screenplay has been requested several times. It's also not my first screenplay. I have gotten coverage from three different producers through Stage 32, and while I am the main writer, I am not the only one - the two other writers are the producer and director involved in the project, both with several successful feature films under their belts.

On top of all that, the screenplay has been through seven drafts. But the critique wasn't for the screenplay - it was for my pitch. As I said, I get requests and I get rejections, one saying it sounds derivative and the next one saying it sounds fresh.

Toby, is the pitch written or in person?

Could it be the comps you may have used? Or some choice of words? Just pondering... If the critique is about the pitch then perhaps there's some little thing that is throwing people off? You said some say "ghost house," right? Is there some verbiage that could be changed? Maybe there's some minor tweaks that could pull the pitch closer to conveying the concept/script more clearly? Even in the most weird comments there could be some little thing that points to something that unintentionally reminds some reviewers of something else.

Also, you could take all your reviews and compare them, suss out any similarities, make a list. There may be a consistent reason to why some may be misinterpreting the pitch. ;)

What would happen if in your sales pitch you say you can bring 40% financing? You think all Naysayers would look at your idea differently?

The last pitch I did was verbal. I used to much verbiage, which was totally my fault. I should have cut it WAY down. But I also sent the SAME GUY a written pitch through another company (hey, I still love Stage 32, though). And the reply was - "Sounds derivative."

But with the SAME written pitch I received several screenplay requests and major interest from an investor/producer. I have, like, seven or eight producers reading the screenplay right now, some of them credited with major blockbuster film franchises.

Well, it's subjective, right? ;) Anyone who reads or views a pitch may walk away will a different impression. I asked because with a written pitch, the pitch recipient can only go by what is on the page -- there's no opportunity for a back-and-forth conversation. Plus the pitch recipient cannot ask questions. So if there's something not clear in the written pitch it may cause confusion or not represent the concept well. And the recipient is not only assessing the story concept but the written pitch too.

But... Toby, it sounds like the odds are in your favor. You have received great response, script requests, etc, etc, etc. Right? So I'm a little confused by your complaint? This all seems kind of typical to me? The uphill battle of rejection and finding the right people for a project. It's difficult and frustrating, no doubt! Again, perhaps compare all your responses and suss out any simularities. Could there objectively be something that's unintentionally giving a wrong impression, especially in the written pitch? The Duffer Brothers were rejected by 21 networks before they landed at Netflix. I wonder how much their pitch changed over the course of those rejections? Just pondering. Lol! ;) Anyway, again, it sounds like you are doing really really well, Toby. Congratulations! I wish you the best with your project. Fingers crossed. :)

It's all subjected (i.e. down to how the person is feeling when they are reading/listening to your pitch). I'm interested in whether you've submitted written pitches or have tried pitching on Stage32? If you're pitch-talking, then practice on friends - I did one to my sister that was fantastic I only wished I had recorded it. That's another thing I suggest, record your pitch - and listen to yourself. If you cringe, then there's your answer. Reading it is a bit different, as you like what you write - unless you put it away and return to it a year or so later, then you usually find what's up with it.

I'm not really complaining. Just making an observation. As I said, there are probably ten different producers, including some with blockbuster movies in their credits, reading our screenplay right now. And yes, I have done dozens of pitches on Stage 32, both verbal and written. It's just funny to hear all the different reactions. I rarely get one that says it's "derivative," but when I do, I have to laugh.

I've read reviews of my books that are the same way. Several reviewers will say, "This is the most original thing ever!" And then there's the one that says, "It's derivative," but with no examples. Producers are human, too. I don't expect them to be perfect or ladle my pitch with praise.

I think a lot of it may be that some people just don't read the entire pitch, or they skim over it and see the words "old, Victorian house" and think, "Haunted house." But it's not. And believe me, whenever I get input from any producer, I look over my pitch and see if I can use it to make the pitch better. I've probably reworked my pitch a dozen times or more.

A lot of times I email back and forth with producers who have questions about things that were answered in my pitch. That's how I know they're not reading everything I send them. But that's okay - people are busy. Believe me - I get that. In the movie business, there are days when you're lucky if you have time to take a potty break. But we're all doing the best we can, right?

Ah, I see. Observation -- of course. Lol! And, absolutely, we all are just doing our best. Again, congratulations on all your successes, Toby! Please let us know what happens with this script. :)

Absolutely, Beth. Thanks!