Screenwriting : Stage 32 Feedback Loop? by Thomas Thorpe

I'm curious as to what a feedback loop for customers would accomplish, Thomas. Who is supposed to benefit? The managers, agents, execs? The screenwriters? Stage 32? Here's my attitude toward pitches, whether done via this site or elsewhere. The people being pitched are looking for saleable material that fits with their employer that they can feel passionate about, or that they just have to read. Failing that, it's a no, and they try to help the writer with their feedback, but there's a lot of flailing around in that area, perhaps because there's no upside to trying really hard at it. So in sum if it's a no, I move on. Period. It's a numbers game, even if you've written a really strong script. The more people you pitch, the more likely you are to find a match for your script.

I agree with you Eric, the people being pitched are looking for saleable material. What I don't agree with is the vehicle i.e. the pitch. Often it appears to be given the short shrift for no valid reason. The experts should read the scripts. I know they're busy, but that's the business. With millions of dollars at stake, decisions are being made after reviewing a piece of scratch paper.

"The experts should read the scripts." There are tens of thousands of script floating around out there, there are a thousand (maybe a few more) 'experts' out there and there are 24 hours in the day - you do the math. Your pitch is supposed to generate enough interest in your script so that the 'expert' would like to read your script. Just 'cuz you pitch it don't mean anybody wants to read it.

And just cause it's rated a pass doesn't mean that anybody doesn't want to read it. Yes, the business is oversubscribed and fodder for scam artists. The job of finding saleable scripts should be done by agents or production company interns, filtered by genre, etc. but based on reading the script itself.

Well we're always free to wish things were different, Thomas, but pitches are a first hurdle in the industry across the industry and have been across time. I've got to think it's an efficient way to do business for that to be the case.

Last year, I met a wga writer who said he had over 100 rejections/passes/failed pitches. He made 0 income from writing in 2017 and he said it was one of the best years of his career.

Basically nobody owes you anything. It’s hard for wga writers, it’s hard for new writers, it’s hard for executives and Producers. But as Eric says, it’s just a numbers game, have more than one idea/script, and keep swimming

I agree with Thomas. Read the damn script before you pass.

Thomas. The job of finding saleable scripts are do by agents that is why so many producers only accept material submitted by an agent. The people you are paying $35 to pitch to here are just people that work in this business. Just because someone is a producer or whatever doesn’t mean they are experts when it comes to screenwriting so their opinions are probably not worth much if anything.

This is a great thread, even if a little disheartening. I totally understand that it's a numbers game. As a writer/ director / filmmaker I've submitted to over 40 festivals... with only 2 being accepted. I've become used to the rejection letter (mostly just boiler plate... this is why my festival provides feedback from the judges). I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for a producer to have to read every script thrown their way. It's just not feasible. I think for me the real issue is finding an exec whose tastes/sensibilities are in line with my own. Looking through the available pitch sessions for any given weekend I generally don't find too many whose work speaks to me.

Just re-read the comments here and had an interesting thought. Where Eric says "...no upside to trying really hard at it.", I believe he means that there is not much reason/motivation for an exec who is being pitched to, to provide extensive feedback. To do so would only take valuable effort & time away from other activities they may need to accomplish that day. Understandable. I get it. Somehow that needs to come across from the other side of the table as well. If, as writers, we are playing a numbers game then we should be allowed to play in that fashion. I don't know about you all, but I don't have an unlimited amount of funds to pay to pitch. So... what if we did a speed pitching session? Imagine being able to pitch to 30 execs (60 seconds or less). I would pay $30 for that. You listening Richard "RB" Botto ?

It makes you wonder if the writers of Sicario and A Quite Place had pitched their work, they would've probably received a pass too. The Industry has a huge supply for a small demand. Yet, Studios are always afraid of missing the next successful concept. When Michael Mann pitched his Miami Vice, the concept was so new (high fashion U/C cops driving sports cars, background Pop music with no dialogue, etc...) it took time, eventually his work was accepted and it became an iconic symbol for the 80's.

Pamela Bolinder That's Adrien Brody.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004778/

Pamela Bolinder Hey! What are you implying? He's only a year older than me. ;)

Pamela Bolinder Depends on the state laws. ;)

Pamela. A producer's opinion matters if they want to option or buy your screenplay or they hired you to write it. I am not sure why you brought up CJ Walley and The Black List because that didn’t seem to have anything to do with what I said... Maybe I missed something.

Dan, Amen about your comment regarding the job of finding scripts. But back to my original point. If the industry rep likes the pitch and wants to see more it's a miracle. But if he's looking for an excuse not to use it, as 99% apparently do, you feel cheated that your project is rejected based on a few sentences. So, what Stage 32 needs is a feedback loop that lets them know how well their product being received, allows customer evaluation and puts these reps on notice that capricious, lazy or unfounded responses are not acceptable.

23 minutes ago

Thomas. I don't disagree with you but I doubt they would change their policies.

Good luck pushing your feedback loop, Thomas, not that I'm convinced there's practical value in it. In the meantime, I recommend trying to master pitching. It's not a miracle when you get a yes IMO. It's a product of research (pitching to the right people at the right time), experience, self-evaluation (e.g., recognizing what the selling points of your script really are) and creativity, or so it seems to me. For example, I just happen to have a new script and I've been pitching it to the pros over at VPF (because the cost is less than $10 a pop there), and the results to date: 15 pitches resulting in 4 requests for the script, a 27% hit rate, and not a miracle!

Eric. Just curious what is the VPF?

VPF equals the Virtual Pitchfest website.

Thomas, how many times have you pitched this script ? More than 10 x, 20x?

When I started looking for a rep, I sent out 300++ queries in a 18-month period. I could’ve stopped at 100 rejections, or 200, but I keep swimming until an Agent liked my spec, my attitude, my professionalism (Unbelievable huh).

So it’s just a numbers game until your turn is up. Just be ready and have your materials organized. Remember Wally Pipp of the Yankees? He never got his job back from a rookie player named Lou Gehrig.

Like Dan M I sent out hundreds of query letters when I was looking for a Agent. I also called a few agencies every day and asked if any of their Agents were accepting new clients. I got mine off a cold call. After I pitched her over the phone she asked me to send her my two best screenplays like I had two good ones. LOL! I thought they all stunk but she liked the ones I sent her and wanted to represent me. She now reps me as both a screenwriter and a producer.

300 plus queries? At 30 bucks a pop, that would be $9k, with no guarantee of any return on that investment.

Travis Calvert I am a donkey, I did it the hard way. free. queries on my Time.

I paid $19.95 for a how to book and took me a few years to break even.

"no guarantee of any return" is what the business world knows as risk. Lay your chips down and roll the dice.

Dan Guardino LOL!

I work in the gambling industry. I know better.

Travis Calvert Either way, the house always wins!

Hey Thomas, I just came back from a pitch fest in Los Angeles. What one producer told me "I can't nearly focus with all the noise around us. Five minutes is not enough, I wish we had more time". My only consolation was he asked for my script... Just imagine every week how much material each serious producer received... but like you said to summarize the quality of your script in a five minute pitch can be unfair. The Hollywood Report published an article this week, highlighting the risks of aspiring writers (overspending in this business with no return) advising them to "exercise cautious", interesting article. Even established professionals hear a "pass", last year I spoke with the director of 1991 Robin Hood (Kevin Costner played the main role) and he said two studios gave him a "pass". This is my subjective opinion, before I present my script I make sure a reliable script consultant read it and gave me a Consider. I learned the hard way. But like the HR article stated, exercise cautious selecting the professional.

One way to get reads that don't cost money is to attach a director with some good credits to your screenplay. It doesn't cost them any money and if they like your screenplay they might be able to get to direct it. A producer can also use the director to help attach other talent and raise development money and eventually production money. If you don't have any credits or good connections I think this is worth trying.

Ramus Labiapari michael mann did not create Miami Vice. Anthony Yerkovich did. The network paid him to stay home.

Dan MaxXX, thanks Dan, but like you said Anthony's name is not linked to Miami Vice as long term TV series cause Anthony got paid to stay home... Even at CNN 80's review, they showed how Miami Vice was an icon of the 80's, changing how TV drama style and yet they interview Michael Mann as his name appears in the long term tv episodes as Ex. Producer.

Templeton: If you look back at my original post, you'll see that the Stage 32 expert made these comments entirely on my written pitch! In other words, he's never read the script only a three paragraph summary from which he cconcludes the plot gets too big too fast. Naturally, each sentence describes a different trait of the script and provides no clue how fast the script develops unless he thinks the summary only addresses the first 15 pages, hence the absurd inference to 85 pages.

OMG Bill & A. S. Again, read the thread.The issue is not the definition of "too big too fast" . The issue is that such a comment is only appropriate after reading a script not the pitch. The pitch is a brief summary of highlights, not even a chronology e.g. "Jane goes to the store. Jane sees a robbery. Jane reports it to the police." Too big too fast? How would you know? What if you now read the script and find that each of these statements are 30 pages apart?

Interesting thread. We live in a world where our attention is sought 24/7 by seemingly a million things at once. Part of me agrees with the OP, but I also know this isn't limited to screenwriting by any means. Think people read your résumé? Think again. You're lucky if you're given a five-second glance-over by something other than a computer. And yes, I've heard it straight from the hiring HR manager (my sister-in-law, lol): they don't have time to read all these résumés. Whatever they're looking for with regards to top priority, they want to see at the very top.

The part of me that agrees with Thomas is, in either screenwriting or finding the right candidate to fill a position, that's your job - and maybe, just maybe, that perfect script or employee is the proverbial needle in the haystack that one has to work a little harder for. It just seems, like everything else in the world today, people want something/somebody to create the equivalent of 8 minute abs as a solution for everything.

The reality is, more often than not - people don't know what it is they're looking for - but know it when they see/hear it, ala "bring me a rock."

The gist of the comments made when this thread was posted 3 months ago was that making "pass" decisions based on pitches is risky. It could be improved if the execs used readers for the scripts but that is the stage 32 limitation for a process which provides the benefits of accessibility and helpful suggestions, but they are by no means the gatekeepers for future production.(not one success story to date has claimed a produced film).

One executive is not the market. Go pitch to 30 or 40 Execs.

Bill Costantini you’re the dude who walks over to a hot craps table and bets the “don’t pass line.” :)

Dreamcrusher! :))))

Thomas - We all think we know what could/should be and I think most of are right but Hollywood ain't gonna change for you or me. So the best we can do is go with the flo.

Bill C - My advice (if you care): If you aspire to be a screenwriter, learn to write tight.

Lol Comparing us forum writers to James Cameron? He wrote/directed Alien and Terminator franchises before Titanic, $2Bil box office track record. He’s not pitching or asking for reader’s coverage.

Ah... no. James Cameron pitched a scriptment to 20th Century Fox. They were a bit concerned with the scope but gave him a greenlight because they were hoping to build a long-term relationship with him. Other studios produced/funded the film as well. ;)

Pam, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Let’s stay grounded and go back to original post. We are in a business of paying for a read request.

Pamela, it depends on so many variables. ;)

Pamela Bolinder Mentioning James Cameron in this post says you don’t know anything.

Let’s get back to pay for pitch business. Thomas is clearly not a happy customer.

Pamela, you mentioned The Titanic above which was written, produced, and directed by James Cameron. Unless I’m missing something? Lol! ;)

Pamela, coverage had absolutely nothing to do with how The Titanic was pitched and made. Nothing. The script was not just “liked” by someone as a deciding factor. They wanted to work with James Cameron — the “potential” was seen in his proven track record and huge box office numbers. See my comment above. Not trying to argue. ;)

Pamela, again, some internal studio coverage was not the make or break of that film.

The larger objective point is that it’s just not a good comparison. Just trying to explain why. ;)

Thanks Pamela for your supporting comments after read my original pitch:

"This is a good synopsis and pitch! I'm no expert. I'd love to see this movie. My guess is that this movie would be not only entertaining but instructional. It is a problem we should be aware of and taking the measures against this happening.

I do not see the correlation between the pitch and "plot gets too big too fast." I think sometimes (just a guess here) that the experts throw out statements for lack of being able to say "I don't like it."

I think most so-called experts aren't experts at anything. The one you pitched to probably saw a way of making some lunch money and wasn't really looking for a screenplay.

Thanks, Dan

Thomas: if a reputable producer doesn't like something, they will very frankly tell you they don't like it. They say what they mean, and don't sugarcoat shit with slippery subterfuge. And bad rapping a Stage32-approved producer in a Stage32 forum only makes one person look bad, bro, and it ain't me or the person you're bad rapping. Hopefully you'll realize all of this one day, and the sooner, the better.

And here is, once again, some constructive and well-intended advice for you: consider deleting this thread. Unless you're seeking to display petulance a plenty...and unless you're happy with providing readers here with unintended comedy, a la Ionesco...consider deleting this thread.

I hope you'll understand what I very succinctly stated here for you..

I did a live pitch session with one. I've yet to receive feed back and we are going on a month and half now. Doubt we'll ever do one again. It's left a sour taste in my mouth. Feel like I'm paying a lit agent to read my manuscript just to reject it and take my money. And most managers are looking for a project to produce instead of looking to rep your career.

Hi Tracy: I tend to agree with you. I've several Stage 32 meeting requests that go back 5 months and I've yet to hear from them. It may be they're overloaded, but the lack of responses demonstrate my original premise: the need for a feedback loop. Without it, people need to vent and share experiences, so there's a lot of grumbling. With it constructive advice could occur for both sides including the shortcomings of the Stage 32 process. Regarding managers, I've had one for a year. Yes they're looking for moneymakers, but I appreciate her approach in a shared effort to market scrips.

Nick & folk - Thanx for a little faith renewal (I've long suspected that you all wear white hats).