An industry reader recently compared one of my screenplays to Paul Thomas Anderson's Inherent Vice, a film I've never viewed, and Quentin Tarantino's Once Upon A Time In Hollywood, which I've seen twice. The IV script is 129 pages, and OUATIH has a two-hour and forty-minute run time. Though the OUATIH PDF script is currently unavailable, we can assume it's at least 135 pages.
So as someone who has been taking screenwriting seriously for ten years, I've always heard other writers and industry folks say don't submit screenplays more than 120 pages long. And, in reality, for aspiring writers, it's probably wise counsel. Nevertheless, aspiring writers will insist Anderson and Tarantino, and many other successful directors and screenwriters exceed the 120-page count. So there's the rub, and I don't mean dry rub... you put that on steak and chicken. But I digress.
So, for all those who say there are rules in screenwriting, I say phooey! If you're an aspiring writer, don't worry about those pesky, inhibiting things like proper formatting, grammar, subtext, inciting incidents, relevant plot points, obstacles, setbacks, turnarounds, and, heaven forbid, page count. I mean, most readers don't care about that crap. Instead, I say march to your creative drummer and listen to your inner voice.
Regarding my path, I won't submit screenplays without putting them to a rigorous grammar check and several read-throughs, including using the Final Draft voice machine. After that, I trim non-value-added scenes and analyze my story to ensure my plot point connects sensibly and that I don't include inane on the nose dialogue. And at this stage of my journey, I won't submit scripts more than 120 pages long unless a client asks me to. And so far, nobody has ever asked me for a more extended script.
Remember, kiddies, there are no rules. But ignoring them pesky guidelines might get your screenplay tossed in a pile (old school) or the reader hitting their delete button (new school). Even if you think the writing is fantastic.
WARNING: Please be advised that this poster's opinions may not be shared by the management of this fine online establishment.
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Phillip E. Hardy, Prolifique Hi Phillip, I understand your frustration and I’m glad you’ve shared it here. It gives a little balance to the purgatory of script gurus with their books and online courses that we have to negotiate.
They offer so many rules to follow that it makes you want to give up before you start. How do I create a pulsating story when I have to follow a list of expected formula? Surely that makes it formulaic?
There have been conversations on the screenwriting lounge, of people being confused by being instructed not to write ‘period’ historical features because they are so expensive. Just think of all the historical dramas that would not have been made: Elizabeth, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Gladiator. Hail Caesar, numerous westerns, war movies and gosh where would we be without costume dramas such as Downton Abbey. Then there’s the science-fiction genre with all its expensive VFX. No Alien, Interstellar or Dune.
I think we maybe ought to teach writers formatting to meet industry standards, what makes a good story good, but not enforce what are in the main, very subjective formulae.Show writers how to ‘birth’ a story, something that is within them that needs to be released without worrying about budgets or formula.
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I wholeheartedly agree with what you've pointed out and I'm getting horse from shouting it out from the pulpit, street corners and roof tops but since nobody seems to be listening or care; I'll quit. I've had some of my work compared with Judd Apatow.
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A lot of people don’t seem to know what rules are. There are certain rules like how to write a scene heading or that you should ALL CAP a character’s name when they first appear on film. Stuff like the number of pages should not be over 120 pages are not rules they are just suggestions. However, anything you do that is not considered the norm means your script might have to work a little harder to convince them.
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Geoff: Thanks for your thoughtful post. I'm not frustrated at all; just making an observation.
Your quote I think we maybe ought to teach writers formatting to meet industry standards, is right on the money. Screenwriters should understand essential formatting and what are standards or just good practices.
For me it is quality. If I am reading/eating/watching/listening to something great, I want more. If I am getting my teeth drilled without anaesthetic, I want less.
Since most newer screenwriters are not good, the sooner you can end the suffering of the reader’s the better. I person will forgive bad writing, but bad long writing is harder to forgive.
So if you are 200% sure you cannot be more concise with your work and it is the very best you can do. Hand it in.
The more I write the more I realise everything is subjective.
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"I didn't have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one." -- Mark Twain
"If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter." -- Marcus Tullius Cicero
"I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time." -- Blaise Pascal
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I love a stunning, made-you-look read as much as the next person. And no one has ever called me a rules person. But let's be real here. Most writers initially make their living writing other people's stuff. And if someone reads a script of yours that breaks all the rules, they might remember you, but they are not going to hire you. They don't have time to clean up a script that has to go to talent, crew, and money people, and they aren't going to explain to anybody how much of a creative genius you are. They will just tell you they love you, and hire the writer who can give them a script they like - that is also industry standard.
And Tarantino and Anderson write shooting scripts. That they already know are going to get made.
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Sheila you are conflating to things that are not related. Breaking all the (non existent) rules doesn’t mean a single things has to be cleaned up. A script that needs to be cleaned up can follow all the mythical rules. A script that is complete original in its story telling can be pristine and clean.
These rules (most people) speak of are just commonalities a group of people have noticed. That is all. They looked at screenplays and found some common traits. They turned them into a product to sell to people and called them rules.
All leading men are tall and muscled, if we examine the successful films of the last decade. Based on Marvel films. Then we Tom Cruise, not tall and aging.
My scripts may fall into these patterns. I don’t know what they are. That is because I have grown up in the same world with the same influences as most other writers.
Following a recipe guarantees sameness. That would remove the writer from the equation. People say “the skill is being great in that framework”. I still find that hard to believe.
What am I conflating? I don't even know which "two things" you're talking about. My point is that you can be the nonconformist that everybody loves and talks about but nobody pays, or you can apply some discipline to your talent and be more than a novelty genius.
The recipe analogy doesn't hold. Recipes specify which ingredients and how and when to combine them. The sameness is a feature, not a bug. Screenplay formatting lets you pick whatever ingredients you want, and put them together to your heart's desire... but tells you there's a label for all of it. That's all it is. Structure is how your particular combination of ingredients is getting you to the total creation.
Show me where proper grammar, standard formatting, hitting emotional landmarks, and a page count that fits the human attention span hinder a great story. You can't, because they don't. On the other hand, missing any of that detracts and distracts. If you really want to share a story, make it easy. Otherwise, you're just showing off.
following a formula and cleaning a screenplay. Two completely unrelated things. That is the conflation.
Formatting in a pages and following a beat sheet again, or as you refer to them emotional landmarks, are again two different things.
A standard document format makes the reader feel comfortable. They are looking at something recognisable. Things that appear on the page mean what they are supposed to mean. It removes a friction point and makes the reading experience easier.
However having to have a particular emotional landmark happen on a particular page. Is formulaic and in my opinion boring.
I was watching the Hans Zimmer Masterclass today. He was speaking about the Joker theme from the Dark Knight. He said most people give villains deep base heavy tones. He gave the Joker light strings. He said doing that adds complexity and makes the audience lean in. I know it is music, the theory is the same.
Give people something new and unexpected, it throws off balance. They have to engage to get their balance back. They are forced to lean in.
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Yeah... No, I didn't do that. You need me to have done that in order to make your point.
I also never said that emotional landmarks have to come on a certain page. I would never say that, because it's not what I think. But all the creative rebelliousness in the world does not change the fact that people, consciously or not, expect the tensions in a story to have a pattern. The unique quality of any story is not in the when of the pattern, it's in the how and the why.
If you want to argue with me, at least use the points I made, not something you say I said.
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Craig. She never said anything about formatting or beat sheets.
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Hi screenwriting people. I’ve been asked by Stage 32 to be this Lounge's Moderator.
I am enjoying the spicy nature of this conversation, it just shows how passionate we are about our craft. Our aim as always is to support one another. Plenty of spice but no red hot chillies, please.
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Anyone here actually been hired by a motion picture studio or TV Network? Do the Suits in charge tell writers to follow beat sheets, "save the cat" formulas?
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Well, the rules are like the filmindustry. Just food for thoughts. By the way, extraordinary cool poster, Philipe!
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DanM, I have done book coverage for an actor who optioned a book for a limited series she produced and starred in (major streamer), and light rewrites/touch-ups for producers with projects at a major streamer and a basic cable network. "The suits" don't care what your process is. The ones I've worked with either never knew about saving any cats or forgotten one had to be saved. In my limited experience, it's the directors who like beat sheets, but that's purely anecdotal.
By the time you're pitching or submitting to a "suit," your script is done, no matter how you got there, and trust me, nobody wants to hear it. Fantastic treatment at the least, and an attention-grabbing pitch deck are your arsenal. This from the credited writers who got into the rooms.
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Dan M. I was employed as Staff Writer and also worked for a company that made studio projects and nobody ever said anything about beat sheets. If beat sheets help some screenwriters write their screenplays that is fine. However, people out in the real world don't really give a rat's rectum about stuff like that. However, there is always a chance some reader or story editor might think that kind of stuff is important but that might be why they are reading other people's screenplays instead of making money writing them.
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Dan M - my first tv writing gig was in the late '60s - long before Blake's 'Save the Cat' ever saw the light of day. I don't think beat sheets had been dreamed up then but we were prompted to write to the commercial breaks.
If the Simpson’s make fun of it I think it is obvious that it has little meaning.
When Crusty became a big thing and they he was having a movie made of his life. Some executive said “I think he has to reject the journey before he embarks on his quest”. This (I think) is the writers of the Simpson laughing at these type of things.
I have probably said it before. Someone has looked at what appears to be common is stories and created a beatsheet/rules/whatever. These are just common and have nothing to do with storytelling, quality, or value of a story.