Composing : Has the Film Score scene moved to London? by Michael Joseph DeRosa

I heard a rumor from a film score student that the "scene" for film score composers has shifted from LA to London. I know that Hans Zimmer is in London a lot these days. But does anyone have any real Intel on that? This film score student was advised and chose the Royal Academy of Music over USC Thornton for his grad work in composition with his goal to become a film score composer. What's the scoop?

I'm not sure I have any actual "intel," but I have quite a few colleagues in LA that do not seem to be going anywhere. I have not heard anyone talking about London. Again, I'm not sure this is actual usable information.

The rumor comes from my son's college friend, (Mike). Mike, who was a studio composition major like my son, graduated already. They have both heard from friends in composition in LA that are complaining that their careers are also going nowhere there. One friend got an internship at Zimmer's Remote Control Productions and said all he did was fetch coffee, run errands, and got no musical experience at all. He never even got to meet Zimmer who is always in London! Maybe it's just that there is so much competition in LA but all Mike's friends advised him to go to London and not take the grad courses at USC Thornton. I wanted to get some more perspective on that, because I'm advising my son to go to Thornton for the grad course when he graduates. I went to Julliard, and steered him away from there, because while it's great for instrumentalists and "serious" composition, it's not the place to connect with the film industry and pursue a film composition career. Thornton's one year film score "certification" program will be upwards of 80 grand with living expenses and they place their program candidates in internships. I'll putting "feelers" out to see if it's worth the expense or not.

I got a personal message from a fellow Stage32 member in London, who said that he didn't think the music composition "scene" had moved there, and that Hans Zimmer being there was just a personal decision on his part, and not any indication of a shift in the way the Hollywood film score industry works.

You know that's interesting. I have noticed making a lot of contacts with composers and music directors who are all out of the U.S. for me, the bulk of the contacts I'm making are in the U.K., and in Eastern Europe. Yet, I personally know a few people who are going to school for musical composition, here in the states, that work on independent media, but don't get a lot of work in the mainstream market. I guess it's all about going to where the work is?

I'm new here but noticing the same trend, in making a lot of contacts in the UK. I personally believe it's all still centered in LA. But perhaps there's less competition and thus more "opportunities" to break into the business in London? Don't know, but that's what I'm trying to discover. Let me know if you'd like a free copy of my novel in your expanding publishing endeavors. The screenplay version of the story is uploaded here. Mike

That's another interesting perspective, Miranda. I wasn't aware of an actual shift in the production. I know that there are tax "monetizing" strategies for films made in the UK, which I believe require at least one scene filmed in the UK and one actor from the UK in the film. I do know that any film production company that's big will have offices in LA, NY, and London. As far as the film scoring goes, another "note" worthy aspect is that if the film has a big Romantic Orchestral score, then the London Symphony is is usually the one in the credits.... (John Williams scores in particular). I know if I had my choice of any orchestra in the world, it would be them...(and I've studied at Julliard, and the NY Philharmonic is no slouch, for sure. But frankly it's more than the players, it's the hall, and the acoustics at Philharmonic Hall in NYC... frankly suck, LOL). Thanks for that insight. More fuel for the fire. Very interesting.

From what I've picked up over the last several years, my bet would be to stay in L.A., if possible. The people in the business whom I've talked to, or whose book I've read, strongly indicate that even for composers, getting gigs is mostly about who you know, and timing. I believe most of the "business" of film making still takes place in L.A., even if those film movers and shakers end up going to other states to actually produce the film. As a new film composer, I decided to join the Society of Composers and Lyricists. They are based in L.A. They recently sponsored a workshop I attended where the audio engineer, music editor, lead orchestrator, and conductor for the blockbuster film, Elysium, discussed their workflow for getting the score produced. I connected with the audio engineer, and am having him mix a couple of my cues for a demo. My sense is that these are the types of connections that are most likely to lead to gigs later on. Incidentally, these top music professionals were "told" that the score would be recorded at Abbey Roads Studio (in studio A, the big one). This probably means that the production execs heard from their friends that this was the place to go for a great sound, I don't know. Of course there is really no way to know for sure which choice is more likely to lead to a growing career. But personally, if I were lucky enough to be so young and have such an encouraging and helpful father, I would self-study, listen a lot, compose a lot, and be present a lot, all in the L.A. area, and use the 80 grand for purchasing some high-end gear! No matter what, I'm sure your son will do well. If he's likable, talented, and persistent, he'll reach his goals.

I've noticed a lot more of what Miranda pointed out, issues with taxes, among others, various smaller companies are moving outside of LA, causing a weird break up of services spreading all over the States and to Europe. Three of the companies I work with moved their operations to Canada, as another example, not necessarily in Music, but production overall. It's a trend that needs to be monitored for anyone who is looking to be where work pertinent to their own assets are actually going to be.

It's certainly a fast moving, ever changing business, that's for sure. I've talked with a friend, Dana Kuznetzkoff, (who is the vice chair of the Producer's Guild of America East), about tax incentives and which countries had them. I'm not dropping names, but Dana's background is as a line producer and I wanted to see if I'd chosen my own screenplay's locations wisely. According to her, almost every state and every country has some kind of tax incentive to try to attract the movie industry. I've tried to read about movie financing, and it's so freekin' complicated! They don't call it "high financing" for nothing, and it's so ironic that the people in finance that actually call the shots on which projects get the green light, know as much about good art, as I do about financing... (almost nothing!). But it's definitely becoming a global market. For the fist time in history movies are loosing money domestically in the USA, but making up for that globally! So it only figures that the center of power in Hollywood is expanding globally too. China has become a big player and wants American films as much as they did Coca Cola!

Thank you Paul for your kind words and advice for my son, Dillon. I gave all three of my sons the same advice my father gave me..."Don't go into music, there's no money in it!" They haven't listened any better than I did, LOL. But Dillon happens to share my dream of becoming a working Hollywood film score composer, so I thought I'd try and get him better advice than I got, (which was just to write a lot and get an education.) So I did a lot of researching on the lives of the "top 40 film score composers" ), the list of which I took from the 2008 issue of Film Score magazine), to see if there was a pattern to their success. The top 40 was based on who was getting the work and not some arbitrary opinion. Here's what I learned: Almost none of them had a degree in composition, (so apparently an education is not a requirement). But 90% of them were either from LA or had major connections there. Even James Horner, (who we think of as British), was born in LA and his father was a set & production designer & occasional director, and then spent his early years in London at the Royal College of Music. This much is clear: If the film score scene isn't centered in LA, it certainly began there, and three generations of the Newman family of film score composers will attest to that much. :)

Chris, you're the first one in LA who is taking note of the reverence of what's happening in London. BTW, my son's best friend's name is Chris Johnson, LOL. :)

Yes, I'm not surprised by what your research has revealed. Both books, "The Emerging Film Composer", by Richard Bellis, and "Complete Guide to Film Composing", by Richard Davis, have an entire section at the end describing some of the paths of pitfalls encountered by many of the top composers of the last decade or two. I found those both to be good resources. And what they describe about what it takes to "make it" mirrors what you said above.

Thanks Paul. I'm ordering both of those books. I wish there had been more information available about this when I was a young student.

Hi everyone - since there are a lot of composers on this thread, I wanted to let you know that Stage 32 member Mark Jacobs has a new film he needs scored (he's going to list it in PROJECTS soon): http://www.stage32.com/profile/5546/mark-jacobs - might be worth reaching out to him if you are looking for work. He just got back from filming in Vietnam and is in post right now and about to start the search for someone to score.

Hey Michael - Food for though on Labor Day. I don't think so, although London has fantastic players and everyone covets Abbey Road. I think the greater question is, "are film scores leaving Los Angeles" and if so why? LA is obviously the most expensive place in the world to record. But its still the best bang for your buck... if you can afford it. Skywalker/SFO and London are both an amazing options and I wouldn't consider either a second, just a different option and of course less union requirements in London. However, Prague and Washington etc are nice compromises but never achieve what you can musically achieve from LA sessions. If the answer is to save money then this is a problem whether its a violin player or a dp. Producer's choose to cut cost and so local talent suffers. What I project is that this will ricochet back on producers that operate this way and soon enough, producers will be the job that is cut and or the one who works for peanuts. To me we're going the wrong direction. Most producers get ticked because musicians in general are better protected through contracts than other acumen in the business. Instead of tearing down the protection of musicians we should be building up other professions in the biz that they be protected as well. Its everyone's job to understand the importance of supporting our community as a whole and that the more pros that touch our productions the better off we all are. Food for though on Labor Day.

Nice to have an opinion from someone as accomplished as you, Brett. I think you've hit upon the heart of what drives the entire film industry and subsequently the film scores: the MONEY. Obviously if you can afford to hire John Williams or Hans Zimmer, money is not the object, and they will record the score where those composer's have preferences. Maybe the real question isn't if the film score scene may be shifting to London, but "Is it cheaper to record film scores in London?" If lower budget films are recording more in London these days, though, maybe young budding film score composers have a better shot in London to break in? For my own tastes, if the movie doesn't have a really good score, than I just don't enjoy the film. I'm seeing more and more films these days that "could" have been bigger hits, if the music wasn't so bad. So getting cheap on the music is a really bad move in my opinion. Here's two cases in point, (just my opinion, but let me know yours, everyone). I saw Thor and on fist viewing hated it. But for some reason I watched it again... and again, and again, until I realized... Oh! I like the music, and I wasn't surprised to then notice the score was by Patrick Doyle. In my opinion, it has a very weak story, poor acting save Anthony Hobkins, and I'm sick to death of super hero flicks.... but I've watched it a dozen times! In contrast I watched "The Grey", and thought it was well written, well directed, and well acted. I love Liam Neeson, and thought his performance was top notch. But I hated the film! The music just wasn't there. Don't get me wrong, the score is well written, but it does nothing to add to the film, (it doesn't detract, but it's just there, following the rules not to detract from the film and draw attention to itself). As a stand alone piece of music, it's quite beautiful. Marc Streitenfeld is obviously very talented. But here is where I think that the film could have been a much bigger hit if they hadn't gotten "cheap" and given a shot to someone who has been predominantly a music supervisor, editor and assistant to other composers. I would say not a bad job for his first job at a big feature film, but the film suffers for it, (and I should be so lucky to get to where he is, so who am I to criticize). But there's my point. Hollywood still doesn't recognize the just HOW important the right music is to the success or failure of a film.

Great comments Michael. Again, if going to London to do a live score is cheaper, then people will continue to do it because London doesn't lack in performance and sonic quality as do some other towns. + For a yank to go hang out in London and record his score is really a fantastic feeling and I think actually inspires composers. Its a win win. Second - Money is always an issue and rightfully so because this is a business and a pretty crappy one at that. The saying goes that: the studios are looking for one film to financially bail out their other 12 - 14 films a year. All in all it makes wall st. seem low risk. Obviously I'm partial, but I feel as you do that music is something that should be glorified financially in a film budget. It should be revered, honored and given the adequate time to give its best back to the film. This is a growing... compounding problem because music is becoming so de-valued. Truthfully most producer/directors have no idea what they should be trying to accomplish with music in their film. As I tell most young prod/dir - "Wanting to put a song in your film because you like it is probably the absolute worst case for putting a piece of music in your film". Going a step further, proper use of music is not being taught in film schools these days. I don't know of one school that adequately takes the time to teach prod/dir students the rules and reasons for proper music in their film making. If a better education was being given, then it would result in film makers taking full advantage of the opportunities a proper and compelling soundtrack can add to their film. Giving it value and increased perception. Third, I seldom blame a composers for a less than effective film score. Very often they have been boxed in a corner and given little creative license to move the film as they see fit. Not that composers can't strike out on a film every now and then - but usually like any other role in the film making process if you hire some one, let them do their job.

I concur with both of you guys, and I'm glad Brett made the point about composers often not being responsible for how "fitting" a score may be, because many times every exec and his brother are standing around giving input while the composer demos his ideas (worse-case scenario). But I would suggest that "going cheap" does not always negatively effect the upcoming film composer. I believe it is that lack of discernment for quality which Brett mentioned, which is the problem, and this adversely effects the ability for the veteran composer to maintain a decent living. An interesting example is this film, Elysium, which I mentioned above. The score was indeed recorded in London, even though the recording engineer, lead orchestrator, and conductor were from overseas (on the American Continent). The composer, Ryan Amon, had experience working on film trailers, but had never scored a feature film. He had recently moved to Bolivia, of all places, and the director of the film, Neill Blomkamp, literally discovered his music by surfing YouTube! Ryan did an admirable job on the score, I think, and what a nice break for him. This was probably a combination of Neill keeping the budget down (by not hiring an A-list composer, or even a veteran film composer) as well as getting a sound that he felt resonated with the story as he was trying to tell it. So just because the score ended up getting recorded in London certainly did not mean anyone felt compelled to find a London-based composer. If they want Abbey Road studio, they will fly their entire music team there as needed, including the composer (if you're paying $150K per day for your studio and musicians of choice, you can pay a few extra thousand to bring over the team you trust). Here's a link to an interview of Mr. Amon: http://8dio.com/blog/interview-with-ryan-amon/

Apparently great minds DO think alike, LOL. And you're right in that I'm sure it's not Marc Streitenfeld's fault about his score to "The Grey", in that he didn't have a free reign to do what he wanted to. I've never had the pleasure to try and placate a big director or producer. But I've observed my son Dillon in similar situations several times in writing for student films. He wrote a brilliant score for a student film, that I told him was way to good for that poorly written, directed and acted, "attempt" at film making. And the director told him it wasn't what she wanted. So he quickly wrote something that he figured she'd like, and she loved it. It was a match made in hell, of mundane music for a mundane film. I told him to save that brilliant score for another time and a better film! I haven't been there as a film score composer, but I've been there as a performer and song writer, at the mercy of businessmen such as Clive Davis and Mark Spector. "Jive Clive" chomped on his cigar after listening to the music and said, "I don't get it. What's the concept?" Just another businessmen looking for a sales angle. Yes, it certainly IS a crappy business, LOL. And I guess the successful musicians have that "talent plus" ability to "sell" the business executives on what's good for their film. I'm sure the "powers that be" in film making know as much about the art of film making as recording executives know about good music. As far a film schools teaching film students about "the rules and reasons for proper music in their film making", I can say for a fact that it isn't taught at all in the film department at my son's school. There was a fantastic video clip on You Tube of the flying scene from "How To Train Your Dragon" with and then without the music, that demonstrated just how crucial the music was to the effectiveness of the scene. It should be required viewing for all young film makers. But "how" to teach which music works in which situations to "non musicians", seems like a daunting task.. You would think that in a business that spends millions to produce a film and audience tests the titles, and endings before releasing the film, that they would audience test the music. But I've never heard about that being done.

I've actually developed a curriculum that I believe would accomplish the task. Getting a university to bite has been another issue, even though they know the need exist. Funny world.

I haven't seen Elysium yet, Paul, but it's on my list of "must see". The story interests me, but now your endorsement of the score has placed it on the top of my list. Apparently Neill Blomkamp knows his music. I'm sure there is a lot more undiscovered talent out there. Once upon a time, Spielberg was a young director taking a chance on John Williams. Only time will tell if Blomkamp and Ryan Amon will forge a winning alliance to rival that. I agree of course that it's " lack of discernment for quality which Brett mentioned" and not actually the money. As in any smart purchase you can always find a "great deal", but you do usually get what you pay for, and I'm sure it helps to secure backers when you have an "A" list composer signed on to a project. But it's interesting to note that Blomkamp and Amon chose to record in London, when neither one is really "A" list yet.

Bret, it's wonderful that you have developed a curriculum to address the proper use of music in film. Have you approached The Berklee College of Music in Boston? I had a nice conversation with Dan Carlin, the head of the Film Scoring Department, when my son won a composition scholarship to to there, (but ended up choosing not to go there). Carlin has since been replaced by George Clinton, but "Berklee offers the world’s only undergraduate film scoring degree as well as a unique minor in video game scoringBerklee offers the world’s only undergraduate film scoring degree as well as a unique minor in video game scoring." My son still maintains friends at Berklee and has "sat in" on some of the many SKYPE "live" video seminars that the students get to enjoy there with the likes of Howard Shore, (an honorary degree alumni). But while Berklee offers a film score major it does not have a film department, (a deciding factor in my son not going there). My point here is that you might have more success by offering a virtual "live" online seminar and approach a broader range of film schools. I've heard good things about the Film Department at Florida State University.

Again, I don't know exactly who chose to record at Abbey Road, but in that workshop I attended, the audio engineer did say that they were "told" they would be recording at Abbey Road. Bear in mind that the list of credits for the 4 panel members he was referring to include video games like "Call of Duty: Black Ops 2", "World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria", "Mass Effect 3", "Assassin's Creed Revelations", and "Avatar: The Game", as well as film and TV work on "Breaking Bad", " Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End", " Transformers", " Bee Movie", " Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen", "9" (a great animation I highly recommend), " Transformers: Dark of the Moon", "Ender's Game", and of course, "Elysium". So I'm pretty confident this also means that the composer was "told" they would be recording at Abbey Road. However. I don't know if Neill was in on that decision or not. This case study does highlight another important consideration. I was encouraged by two veterans in the film/video game score industry to focus on finding my unique sound (or voice). This obviously worked out in the case of Ryan Amon, but I also know that this helped "House of Cards" composer Jeff Beal capture the attention of Ed Harris when directing his film, Pollock, an event which gave Beal his first big break, and launched what's turning out to be a stunning career.

Good Idea Michael. My curriculum is really socratic and I'm not sure how well it can be implemented online - but I'll think about it.

Well Paul, "He who has the gold makes the rules", and I'm sure the producers have much to do with how their money is being spent and which recording studios will be used. The concept of "finding your own voice" has been a tried-and-true precept in the recording industry right along. Sounding like someone else is like the "kiss of death" in the recording world, and just makes you a poor imitation of the real thing. So that is very good advice, of course, and I would only assume it's the same thing with film/video game score composition. The world still has John Williams for example, so trying to be the next John Williams just makes you a second rate one, (and I think a lot of young film score composers are trying to do just that). But I also think trying to create a totally new sound that is unlike anyone else is like trying to be something that you're not. I personally believe that "our voice" is not something that we "find", but simply something that we ultimately "are".

Very true, Michael.

I understand your concern about your curriculum online, Brett. I give piano lessons via Skype. There can be a give and take, and that "doubt & questioning" via "live" video conferencing. It just might involve you giving assignments and assessing them at the next session. I have also been a teacher in various schools for many years. The technology si only expanding your market, not limiting your curriculum.

I have a lot of great songs to choose from at www.numberonemusic.com/vaughnhemingway You should definately listen to Heavens Gate 5 and Punk in the Trunk. Let me know if you would like affordable licensing for any of these.

I should have share this with you yesterday Michael. These guys are being proactive about LA and saving their jobs. http://hollywoodscoring.com/

I looked at their site, Brett. But I couldn't see how they're "proactive about LA and saving their jobs", so I'll take your word about that. But if people are worried about it, than it adds to the rumor. Here's another factor. Deborah Roberts, an actress in London, mentioned all sorts of construction of new film studios and facilities she knows of the London metro area. That's a sure sign of growth. I can't say the same for NYC or of what I know of LA. But again that could all be about certain stages of production, and not the film score end of things.

Michael, one point I thought of, though, in terms of the connection between building out of other stages of production and film score work ... there is an element of truth to the fact that it is easier to get film score work if you live where the people are who are making the films, because it is so much still about relationships. So if more directors and producers move to London because that's where so much of the production is happening, then it becomes harder to get jobs through personal relationships with them if you do not live there, right?

Very good point, Paul. It certainly is ALL about building relationships with people whose work you know and whom you can count on. I think all businesses are like that. However several other thoughts occur to me. My hometown is Mamaroneck , NY where the film industry actually began back in the days of silent films. And it moved to Hollywood because you could shoot all year there. So why would things be shifting to London? - (Certainly not because of the weather, LOL). Another thought it that LA already has so many studios and facilities, so it may not need any more, as you could always refurbish some old studio lot that already exists without having to pay the taxes on new construction. You've the one in LA, so you would have a better grasp on that. If more production is going on in London, then it may be that they have to build to meet that need, because the facilities don't exist to BE refurbished. Here's another thought on relationships. We usually form those bonds when we are first getting started, (our longest standing friends are the ones we turn to most often.) So if a director or producer has reached the point where he is being flown to London to shoot a big film, he may have already forged a relationship with a composer that he trusts. These are all gross generalizations of course and the fast paced and ever changing film industry is hard to keep up with. But if it's a growing trend, then I'm wondering why someone hasn't written an article about it? Or maybe they have and I'm just "out of the loop?" I'll try and do some searches on that question.

I think no one has mentioned another reason why recording of music is done in London..... British musicians are known for being excellent at sightreading and being able to produce results very quickly due to their training. Also, the sheer number of world class musicians living and working in London is huge because its not just film scores that are made here, but every other conceivable type of music too. So access to excellent musicians is prime. And the recording studios are fantastic... not just Abbey, but others too. So recording sessions may work out better and even cheaper simply because of the work process. Scores have been recorded in London for years by Hollywood composers... There is a reason! In terms of where one should base oneself...that's a hard one to answer. I'm based in London and I haven't necessarily seen an increase in opportunities. You still have to be in the right place at the right time. LA, from what I can see provides far more opportunity to meet people at functions, parties, or even the supermarket!!

There are probably many film makers and production companies in London as well, as it is such a huge metropolitan city, and home to lots of amazing talent, for sure. So I think an interesting question may be, how often do we see London-based film makers going to L.A. to have their scores recorded? If we fairly assume that the difference in skill level of the musicians local to each place is negligible, then why do we not see as many London-based directors and producers flying their engineers, composers and conductors over to an L.A. studio to get the recording done (if this is indeed the case)? All things being equal, film makers in each city would use local musicians -- or occasionally fly overseas to a special studio out of some personal preference or desired sound -- in roughly equal numbers. If London film makers are not coming to L.A., then why not?

I think the musical training, sight reading speed, and recording scene in London are valid points, Arhynn. And you're right, scores HAVE been recorded in London for years, and I'm still wondering exactly why that is? New York, (or LA for that matter), has no shortage of good musicians, recording studios, or as Paul just mentioned, production companies. So what is it about London that seems to attract Hollywood film scores? I wonder if the pay scale for studio musicians and studio session time is less in London, (because that would explain it all.)

I'm in communications with this audio engineer who worked on the score for Elysium (recently out, starring Matt Damon), who had mentioned in his workshop that they were "told" they'd be doing the recording at Abbey Road. I will ask him if he can pass on to me why they (the execs) chose to go there in that particular situation. Might be interesting.

John pointed me to this: https://www.facebook.com/notes/bring-more-recording-to-los-angeles/the-b...

Yeah - Richard's article is great and tells the truth of the matter. However as it's stated in his article "“backend” payments are determined by the success (or lack thereof) of soundtrack albums, DVD sales and cable/TV." So really only when a film is successful does it share in its success. Truthfully that's what makes the LA scene what it is. It raises the competitive level for the players and crew and keeps the bar high because the stakes are higher in having these positions. Everybody wants to get them, everybody wants to keep them. You're only going to keep them if you're one smokin player. In another light that I'm surprised Kraft didn't mention: All musical backend royalties and fees paid out by the studios still amounts to less than 1% of their budgets. Now I get it - money is money, but also money well spent can be money earned. As we view it - less than 1% tilts the scales more towards bean counting than being a vibrant film company. In the end there is a price for comfort and security as well. I'm sure with Elysium, one of the big reasons for being chosen is knowing what the end result will be. Perhaps the LSO and Abbey Road was a better choice for a first time composer. That is, if disaster strikes, its a bit more remote than 20 mins from the studios. Who Knows. Again - I can have the conversation between LA and London and really can say that neither has advantages except that they do have different sonic aesthetics. But Seattle though, should not be in the same conversation. The SFO and Skywalker is a better option and would be closer, imo, to being thrown in the mix, although there's backend there as well. Lastly - I will say that some composer's choose specific players and that is even at a greater premium. J Williams hand picks players from all over the world on some of his projects and so no telling what deals are drawn up. That ain't cheap. So in closing - I just don't think its so black and white. Ultimately as long as the studio is musically behind the project, we are truly blessed. If being behind the project means doing it "in the box" vs. Seattle, then I'm thrilled if they spring for Seattle, but if they choose Seattle because they see no difference between Seattle and the LSO or LA then its negligence.

Those are all great points. Looking back, I'm not sure the article really helped answer Michael's main question, though, concerning what the trend is. One can analyze and best-guess what the thinking process is (or should be) for the ones whom the author calls "the buyers". But can this lead us to an answer about whether the film score scene has actually moved, or is moving, to London? Not sure. I do know that Elysium did NOT start off as a big-budget project (based on the history this audio engineer gave during the workshop). And we do know that Blomkamp found this new composer's music on YouTube. Both are possible indications that keeping the budget down was indeed a priority (i.e., even more than usual).

What a great article Paul!!! I had never even considered or knew about "back end payments", or that London and Seattle had "buy outs". I can see why John Williams scores would be recorded in London then. The back end payments to the musicians would be something to consider, being that the sales of the "sound track" to one of his scores usually is successful. It's less clear for the decision on a fist time composer like Ryan Amon though. Maybe it's just about the accoutrements of being in London? I mean if it was me and someone said:"where would you like to go to record your score: LA, London, or Seattle?" I would want to get a chance to go to London because it's more exotic. I've been to LA and Seattle but I've never been to London, LOL. Greed is a powerful motivator and the thought of potential millions in back end payments has got to be a big factor in the decision making process. Brent mentions that it's still less than 1% of the budget, but isn't that the "front end payments" you're talking about Brent? And if that 1% were the profits, well than, that's "a point" and deals are broken on those "points" aren't they? I'm on weak ground when it comes to finances, but it figures that it all comes down to the money. However when it comes down to where a young composer, (like my son) is better off in getting an education and trying to break into the industry, there we have another question. Ryan Amon may have gone to London to record his first big sound track, but I take notice of the fact that he was born in St. Paul, Minnesota and after receiving a fellowship from BMI he moved to LA, (and not London).

Another, slightly related, article about just what to expect from those studio "profits". http://www.deadline.com/2010/07/studio-shame-even-harry-potter-pic-loses...

Hey Michael - the 1% is from the overall annual budget of a studio. Again this includes royalties as well as back end payments. imo, to come full circle thanks to Paul. I don't think sessions are moving to london any more than they are staying in la. I do think Seattle, Prague and the likes are widening their slice of the pie. LA does have an issue because they are not the only game in town anymore, but if you can be so fortunate as a composer - nobody will make you look/sound better than la.

I agree with your assessment, Brett that, "nobody will make you look/sound better than la", because it all started there and it has had the most time to develop the best of the best But if the likes of John Williams and Hans Zimmer choose to go to London, then it's got to be an indication of "something" and I think that something may well be the back end payments, (and not just personal preferences and "friends". These men are professional businessmen and money takes president over likes and dislikes. Williams could obviously record where ever he chooses to at this point, but despite his ties to George Lucas he chooses London over Seattle, (correct me if I'm wrong on that because I am only going by the credits for the London Symphony on the recordings, but for all I know he fies them all to Seattle.) Either way, even if the film scoring "scene" has or is moving to London, I still think the place to get started and make those connections is in LA. I read once in Film Score Magazine that it's better for a budding film score composer to get to know one director than a hundred other film score composers, LOL :)

And Paul, I read that article on "Studio Shame", and this is where I get lost, LOL. It's all "high finance" to me. When I read that Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix grossed just shy of a billion dollars and is still 167 mil in the red... it just doesn't compute to me. If that's the case why do they make any movie???? I just don't get it. To me it looks more like that's how they're putting it down on paper to avoid taxes and get out of sharing the profits with the other people who bought a stake in the film. But what do I know? If I was any good with figures I'd have taken a steady job like an accountant, LOL :)

Yeah, I think it would be like paying your son a million dollars to score a film you're producing, and then stating that the production company that you and your son own did not make a profit off of your $1.2 million film. If I had a contract with you to share in some percentage of your film's profits, I would not get much of anything. Meanwhile your son makes a mint. Essentially, that's what the article appears to be talking about. Except they are doing this with subsidiary and sister companies that handle things like marketing. Meanwhile, people with clout, movie stars like Tom Hanks, make deals with a percentage of the gross, not the net profit. A much more substantial value, which can not so easily be hidden by the books.

All very interesting reading! I did know about back end payments and the like, but hadn't thought it would have such an effect as choice of location! A bit naive of me really.... just thought decisions at that level were about the art. Perhaps they're even less about the art than in micro budget, indie movies??? And its clear you need to be a business man as well as an artist to be successful in the industry, to look after yourself. There will always be greed an creative accounting.

Well, maybe I'm not as dumb in finances as I thought, Paul, because that's exactly what I thought it looked like, LOL. "Creative accounting" indeed Arhynn! You make a blockbuster that grosses a billion and tell your backers, "Sorry but we lost money on this one", LOL. Now that's the "show business" I've come to know on the recording end of things! And top composers choose London to, (pardon my French), screw over their fellow musicians to make a clean profit. And what you said is so true Arhynn: "...you need to be a business man as well as an artist to be successful in the industry..." and that's what they mean when they call it "talent plus", and as I've told my sons and students, you'll never get to hear the very best musicians on a recording, because they have so much talent that they lack the "plus".

Wow. Thanks for that perspective Chris! I had no idea about that: " UK tax credit for high-end TV productions that offers a 25% rebate". That article points out that: ' The crew infrastructure that is a legacy of the Harry Potter films is considered top-notch, the pound has dropped against the dollar and tax incentives make it even more competitive with its Continental neighbors." And as one of my connections in the UK pointed out, there is a lot of construction going on there. Here's the link and it's well worth the read: http://www.deadline.com/2013/09/hollywood-pics-pack-uk-soundstages-as-sp...