Screenwriting : Save the Cat by Kevin Isaacson

Love the Save the Cat series...I don't subscribe to the exact page philosophy, but I do use the genre rules to construct my scripts. I find those immensely helpful.

I love Blake Snyder's writing and attitude, his book has helped so many people. Personally I think we went too far with his beat sheet, especially when he applied page count. It is a useful guide though, as is his finale structure in the later book.

Lord, please save us screenwriters from people with beat sheets (Unless they are ours).

Excellent reference book.

It's an entertaining and thoughtful book, but personally, I don't subscribe to such overly formulaic, cookie-cutter screenwriting.

Exactly. Structure with creative ebb and flow. Well said Kathryn. :)

Both of you miss the point. Structure is like a frame to hang your canvas in. It's like the glass that you pour the wine into. Does the frame define the painting. Does the glass define the wine. No. It's what you put into that frame or what kind of wine you pour into the glass that matters. You have different types and sizes of frames and different types of glasses but they still give your painting or your wine structure. Something the average joe can relate to. I believe the different structures such as Save the Cat or Syd Fields or the countless other forms out there are similar but are just different types of frames or glasses to work within. Conforming to some type of structure is extremely liberating because it forces you to be more creative to stay within that framework. I use Save the Cat but I also keep the Fields and McKee books close by to also pull from.

Kevin, I assure you, we are not missing the point. We are not denying structure. In fact, Kathryn and I both know plot structure well. What we are merely stating is that we do not adhere to the overly strict and formulaic direction given in "Save the Cat." There really are no hard "rules" to screenwriting, but rather practiced principles. :)

We are on the same page then. I misunderstood the comment "I definitely don't stick to the notion that certain beats MUST happen around or on certain pages. What a pain in the ass that would make writing be." I took that as you see conforming to a structure as a pain in the ass. I have stated before that I don't prescribe to the exact page theory but in comparing the beat sheet to numerous movies, you can see these things happening in the general area. For example, I don't believe that the inciting incident MUST happen on page 12 but it better happen sometime before page 12 to hold the reader. Does Tarantino hold to this. I would say no. But Tarantino can do whatever the hell he wants. To get a spec read and optioned as an unknown we play by different rules.

Again, it's about principles rather than rules. I'd say Tarantino knows the principles of storytelling extremely well. :)

I love this book and it should be one of the many books that all writers read!

Tarantino is a great story teller. He is another one of my favorites. It's just the unknown spec writer won't be able to get away with the same things Tarantino does. It helps that Tarantino does his own movies too. :)

I use the beat sheet and am grateful for it. Helps me structure and plan my scripts. I start with how my story ends, and work backwards.

Can anyone pop in a link...?

Kevin, Tarantino's original specs (True Romance and Natural Born Killers) very much fit in with the standard accepted structure. Pulp Fiction was rejected initially (by the studio that commissioned it) for poor structure. Generally his post success stuff has worked around five clear acts which are titled. Snyder's beat sheet works well as training wheels. Some of us, me in particular, struggle with structure itself. I didn't read Save The Cat until I was 8 months into writing and I didn't know what the three act structure was, I didn't even have a second act at all in one of my scripts. So I think it's reasonably healthy to learn it, work with it, understand it and move forward with the competence to see its limitations. As hinted at, the three act, four act, five act, Save The Cat, Heroes Journey and many other structures all align. Something worth noting is many writers have reported HW execs working to the beats in Save The Cat, it's seems to worth understanding how your screenplay fits. And lets face it, it's not that hard to make pretty much anything fit the framework if you want to. My main issue with Save The Cat is, because it's beat based, it brings a connect the dots system to structure. So for example rather than advising to build a likeable lead in the first act over series of nuanced beats within the building of their world, it advises a single act of kindness thrown in at a certain point. This leaves these huge voids with no direction a writer must fill to simply reach the next beat. The formula is satisfied by simply one beat within one scene in a particular place. This is most apparent in the second act which just alternates a-story and b-story with the advise to swing the emotional direction until the mid point where it becomes bad guys close in swinging from internal to external. I don't like formula but I do like guidance. I come from a marketing and design background. In marketing you can use something like the SOSTAC process to develop a marketing plan (Situation, Objectives, Strategy, Action, Control). In design you can use columns, baseline grids, the divine ratio and rule of thirds to layout your guidelines before even placing content. Stuff like that keeps you on track, takes a lot of stress out your system that can be holding you back. So, in a bid to help myself develop stories, I've actually developed my own guidelines which are very flowing, very basic and more emotionally based.

@Deacon. The books are available via Amazon but the core beatsheet most people buy the book for is listed out here: http://www.beatsheetcalculator.com/

What seems to get missed in the structure discussion (and I'm a strong adherent to structure) is that the final structure seen by the movie-going public is determined by the director and editor. How it gets shot, where it is cut, that is out of the writer's hands. The most the writer can do is present the story as well as they possibly can and hope the final product does it justice. But, as it has been mentioned before, while it is possible to make a bad movie from a good screenplay, it's extremely difficult to make a good movie from a bad screenplay. So write a good screenplay. And a good screenplay needs structure.

Snyder offers a great template to follow, but I recommend reading lots of books and taking from each what strikes a chord with you. Some of my other favorites are "The Writer's Journey" by Vogler and Dara Marks' "The Transformational Arc". The only thing I don't like about Snyder is his absolute insistence on exact page numbers for hitting each beat. A story needs to find its own structure to a certain degree to keep it from feeling stale and color-by-numbers.

Most "experts" counsel writers to stay away from those kind of formulas. They say producers will toss scripts that use such formulaic structures.

@JDSullivan. Which experts? If your story doesn't have an accepted structure (the formula of which you speak) it will not work properly as a story. And that will get it ignored.

Corey Mandell for one: http://coreymandell.net/ Take a look at the people he has worked with before you dismiss him. Corey will tell you that "Save the Cat", "Hero's Journey", etc., are not recognized by Hollywood producers as effective structures. They are viewed as far too formulaic and predictable. See: "Why Story Structure Formulas Don't Work, Part 1" - http://coreymandell.net/blog/screenwriting-advice/why-story-structure-fo... Mandell does not ignore structure: he tells you what it should be. Robert McKee also dismisses such formulas. Jacob Krueger is another: "Rather than imposing formulaic models from the outside, Jacob teaches a unique approach to organically 'grow' your script from initial idea, to character, to scene, to act, to the movie you’ve always dreamed of writing." http://www.writeyourscreenplay.com/about/ Now what experts do you have to support your position? (" If your story doesn't have an accepted structure (the formula of which you speak) it will not work properly as a story. And that will get it ignored.")

I find the notion that producers all follow some form of collective mentality naive at best. There's plenty of evidence out there which demonstrates there are decision makers who both support and dismiss formula such as Save The Cat.

I'll flip it on it's head. You say "Most "experts" counsel writers to stay away from those kind of formulas. They say producers will toss scripts that use such formulaic structures." But "Witness", "Toy Story", "WallE", "Wall Street", "Elysium", "12 Years a Slave", "Rocky Horror Picture Show", "The Man with Two Brains", "The Jerk", "The Navigator", "The Natural", "Natural Born Killers". "(500) Days of Summer" and pretty much every single movie EVER that was commercially successful hangs it's story on the structure presented (but not invented) by Blake (RIP) Snyder.

Let me ask you two questions before I terminate this discussion: 1. Have you ever had a script that you wrote optioned or sold to a major studio, that is, one capable of having it released widespread in the United States? 2. Have you placed in a significant screenwriting contest? By that I mean, achieved at least quarter-finalist status? If so, what is the name of the competition?

Oh, one more thing: Who told you that those films you listed were written using Blake Snyder's "Save the Cat" formula?

Believe what you want. And best of luck in your writing career.

If you had any screenwriting credentials, you would post them. If you look at my profile, you will see the screenplay contest awards I have received. And if you think "Save the Cat" or any other such formula is guaranteed success for your script, send one into a reputable producer and see what happens.

The Writer's Journey is a good resource.

I have issues with Save the Cat. While it was a good resource to build your script off of, I found that I was stressing too much about things that are supposed to happen on a certain page that I lost my story all together. I had tried to follow everything in one of my writing classes where we read his book and wrote our feature based off the formula. I ended my script 30 pages short, but still managed to hit every beat(?). I hated the stress I got from it so I decided to take some elements and find my own formula that works with my style. :)

I happen to be on an email list (along with several other Stage 32 people) from a "broker" between writers and some of the top studio execs in Hollywood. His most recent advice? Forget about structure in your pitches and concentrate on having a great protagonist that you can sell a producer on.

Oh, and by the way, he recommends another structure which came out after "Save the Cat".

Everyone seems to agree that a screenplay needs structure. However, adhering to any sort of set formula or template where specific stuff happens on such and such page is like saying that every building must have 3 windows, 2 doors and 4 floors. That's ludicrous. just like every building needs a foundation, walls, roof, ventilation, etc.) so does every screenplay need the fundamental elements: 3D characters, setups, builds and payoffs, conflict and escalations. what happens on page 17, 45 or 77 depends on each story.

I've used Save the Cat beat sheet to establish the first draft structure. Once I have it I don't take it much into account during rewrites. I go over it at the end to see of any part needs to be strengthened. I found it also very useful for pitching.

Ultimately, what ends up on the screen is a function of the director's and editor's choices. But the underlying structure MUST be there. Blake Snyder didn't invent it. He's created a beat sheet that, if followed (even loosely) will ensure you have a story, whether it's a good story, with a compelling concept and vivid characters is in the hands of the author.

@Dan G. - You are 100% right. Danny Manus has a system which he recommends and it has a relatively loose structure in it. He counsels to avoid such systems as STC, since he works with producers and they recognize such formulas and aren't impressed. The reason that the STC system appeared to work for Blake is because he was already a produced screenwriter when he published his method. Who's going to argue with a screenwriter who has repeated success? That doesn't mean it will work for others. Corey Mandell says avoids these systems altogether. He points out that several highly successful films have someone doing something with food at the midpoint of the story. THEREFORE, you must have something done with food at the midpoint or your script won't work. Corey has an organic structure which only requires certain parts to be components of a unified theme, and a few other essential rules. No page numbers are given or needed in his system. Let those with ears hear!

I took some screenwriting classes a few years ago, and I was told the inciting incident should be around page 10. Sometimes, it's hard to do that. I try not to go past page 12.

Lol@ Dan.

I read the first two Save The Cat books. They were extremely helpful, especially as a companion to Christopher Vogler's "The Writer's Journey."

I absolutely loved this book. In fact, I was going to announce that Amazon.com just published my review. Link is http://www.amazon.com/review/R2G1PFH3MH641N.

I also enjoyed it. Review is here: http://www.amazon.com/review/R1EPZ601VDLNF7/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&AS... I think it's important to remember, though, that there needs to be a compelling story to hang on that framework, or you'll just end up with 100 pages of well structure tripe.

Blake Snyder has absolutely helped me. I also love Frank Daniel's 8-Sequence System. He taught it at USC and AFI. His and Blake's guides are the most popular structures at www.scriptoutliner.com