Screenwriting : Idea to Story by Tony McFadden

Never heard that term; pants. Where does it come from? Unique to you? Unique to a region?

@Marcus, it's short for seat-of-the-pants, an old fighter pilot term for those who don't need to use their instruments at all. They just feel it out by g-forces and inertia. In the writing world, some people just start laying down words without planning, outlining, taking notes. They just write and they are successful at it. I'm not one of them, at least not completely. I need to outline in a rough way, at the least.

@Phil, if you at least have a scene, that is a start. Sometimes, your outline is just the scenes, but a scene needs to have a goal.

I actually do both methods depending on the project. My feature I wrote started when I was 17 and I'm 24 now just having finished the 2nd draft on it's 6 year anniversary. I wrote my feature "cold" or "by my pants" because I didn't know where it could go. I wrote about 8 versions of it before I knew where I was going and I only completed two versions. I just followed my characters. What I did find was my story was a puzzle. Every time I started a new draft I couldn't finish it, it took me a while to realize every draft had a element of the story that needed to be in the completed 2nd draft so it was a giant puzzle it was fun though when I realized it. As far as the "Planning" I really enjoy planning an idea when your working on something with other people and it's more business, because your Producer and Investor's are going to need to see a "Treatment" before they start to take things seriously otherwise your just the idea man.

Think I do a combination of the two. I need some semblance of a plan, but I can't over-plan otherwise I'll lose all interest in writing it. But I have definitely under-planned and found myself going over and over a draft and having to continuously try to fix things- going back to the drawing board. Which is definitely, why for me anyway, I need to know the background at least before I start writing and have an outline.

Wow, thanks for all the feedback. Appreciate the comments. I attempted a "pantsing" on my first book. (I know it's a screenwriting thread, but I'm adapting it to the screen, so it sorta counts.) It took over two years to "finish it" only to discover that it was a structural mess. I had to flip back and forth between Acts to make the story make sense and I frequently got lost myself. Once I discovered the "secret" of the four part / three act structure I pulled it apart and rebuilt it. Took a total of three years to finish the book. Now with the structure and moderately detailed scene planning I knocked out 8 books in five years. Sure, the story within the scenes are not planned, but the objective of the scene is planned, and the two or three months spent doing that planning saves years in re-writing drafts trying to find the story.

I've heard of flying by the seat of your pants. Never heard it as "pants". and never in regard to writing. Thanks for the info.

Yeah, the novel world is divided into two camps, pantsers and outliners. Pantsers think outlining kills spontaneity (it doesn't), outliners think pantsing will lead to a lot of wasted time and stories that, after a lot of effort, go nowhere. Stephen King is a pantser. I think novel writing is where the term comes from.

Tony what you are in essence saying is what I like to call the "backstory and research" to what I do at times. Still there is something to just letting a story "fly" sometimes and while I hate to say it rewrite is probably one of the most important parts of the screenwriting craft. Again just input and opinion. The craft is format, science and art strictly in my opinion. The screenplay I wrote for the Nicholl Fellowship took me nine months once I started writing it. About 8 rewrites. It was probably 18 months from concept to completion. Even if my screenplay gets attention, places or wins guess what I have to rewrite again. Now when I shift gears to TV writing I think that is a different animal altogether. With your authorship background perhaps what you are doing is an appropriate method. I'm realistic because even with all I've done I'm probably just barely comparable. Hey some guys fall right into it, some struggle and some give up. I will say there is something about not having instant gratification with screenwriting that makes the craft so desirable to me. I hope your method works Tony and hope you don't give up a good writer is a good writer and quite adaptable.

@Mark, screenplay world has the same two camps, it appears. To each their own. Whatever works for you, works for you.

I recently went from ad-libbing to planning. I now map out everything out right down to the beats within a scene. I find this keeps me on track and creates a layer of integrity to what I'm developing. I also feel comforted knowing every line I'm writing is doing something significant in terms of plot, character or emotion. The only issue is it's not as much fun or liberating to write this way.

You know, Tony, if you penned this post yourself, you can write. :) Just saying. All you need is a good editor. Even then, what you wrote didn't need a whole lot of editing because we all understood it. It wasn't fraught with typos. Sentences were thought out. Give yourself a break. You can write. :)

We have all seen people who couldn't write. :) You are not in that category.

I agree with you, Tony, a little planning will save a lot of time and confusion when rewrite time comes around. I plan my scripts in detail, so when I start writing it's an easy process.

Like you say, "each to their own". Personally I see my project to it's end, in my mind. Then I begin. By the time the story ends, I'm surprised by the change due to my Characters insight, which I'm embarrassed to say, is a lot better than mine. I love rereading my scripts, where I come to an area that I don't recognize or remember doing, but it fits so well, I leave it in.

You can do the same with an outline. I have never espoused ignoring inspiration and clinging tightly to an outline. All an outline does is assure your story has a beginning, middle and end without wasting a few months of writing to find the story goes nowhere. If inspiration comes, and it usually does during the writing (outline or no outline), the outline gives you a way of testing out your new inspiration to see if it really is an improvement and whether it to can take the story to a satisfactory end. Outlines are gold if you are working multiple projects at one time, or if you shelve a project for a few months (or years). They allow you to remember where you were going.

@Debbie, thanks for the positive feedback, but it isn't necessary. I know I can write. 8 novels completed and 2 more on the way (plus a couple of screenplays). This post was just an exploration of other peoples' methods...

My apologies, when I read "My hat is off to you, but I can't," I thought you were saying you couldn't. :) Wonderful to connect.

Ah, okay. That was in reference to being able to write a story by the seat of my pants. Can't do it if I don't plan it.

I wrote a one hundred fifteen page script on a Detective Series, which won't be named, in two days. For me, it was like watching the show in my head, then writing it on paper. Not all my scripts are written that way, just the ones I'm passionate about.

I begin a project by understanding that I’ll rewrite it many times over. When some idea strikes me out of the blue, I mull it around for awhile – then I write the final scene. That ending is my target – then I work out an outline (the map of how I plan to get there.) Nothing is carved in stone (including the ending,) but having some vague idea as to where I’m going; I don’t often get lost in the writer’s dark forest (oh, maybe sometimes.)

I'm not super-experienced, but I find a hybrid approach that works for me is to write the opening scene(s), and then write the closing scene(s). This pre-defines the arc. Everything in-between can be pants since you know what the destination is. Because you know how it ends, you have an internal Geiger counter on what won't work that keeps you from coming off the rails while you pants...everything else is fair game to go for, no matter how far-fetched or bizarre. That said, you've already got a logline for this before you start the opening scenes, right? Right? :-)

@Phil ditto. I actually only started writing because I became obsessed with this story, and had no other choice.

i def need to outline and then some. i find negotiating plotting to be painful and excruciating. once done i write quite quickly no problems.

I outline. Still, you're talking a single scene. Your characters had lives before it, and will have lives after if. You've found a single point. Work backwards from the scene, then move forward from it. Find the tension and tell that story.

When you're writing a mystery, try adding a second murder that follows along with the first one.A murder was attempted, but failed.A second murderer came along and finished killing his victim from the first fouled attempt, but now has left his own traces behind.The problem is the first murderer has read in the papers that the victim died in a different way.Unless he can prove to his boss that he killed the victim, he won't get paid.

Hi Tony, This is a pretty natural early development phase difficulty. I find "living" with my characters very helpful in alleviating this problem. Have you tried putting the characters in situations you've faced, seeing how they fare. This often leads to depth, to surprising revelations about events, about character (for me at least). Best of luck; I am sure you'll make a breakthrough with the arch soon. Kind Regards, Yasmine Van Wilt

@Yasmine, exactly. This is story number 11. The process will take a few more months before I'm ready to write a first draft, but I've ridden this horse many times in the past. Some character backstory, spitballing the story arc, ensuring the premise knocks it out of the park, these are the tasks for the next little while.

Great; sounds as though you are carving a path forward. Best of luck with your future drafts!

First please excuse my mistakes as English is not my native language. I'm not able to write "aux fesses" from the beginning to the end. I prefer to follow the rules: start with an idea and think about three or four ways to develop it; then chose the best and pin the story cards on my beat sheet, make research if necessary, polish up the characters, the settings, the events... And then begin to write. I tried in the past to let the characters drive me where they wanted, but most of the time; they just drove me where my own pleasure wanted to go: I was writing lots of things that didn't interest anybody. Spending more time with my characters, giving them their own history, traits... is also funny. They drive me into their own world, family, past... (One of my characters told me the history of her parents, which is now a new project on my board) but they don't direct my story. I'm still their fate, and I write for the readers/audience's pleasure. I also believe that certain genres require a minimum of preparation and research: suspense, History... Finally, prepare everything doesn’t avoid rewrites, but it seems to me these are more effective, as I make improvements more than corrections. All the best.

Andrew, pretty sick idea. I love it. I love twisted and complex plots.

Dear Tony, ah, I finally found a place where you can discuss writing, and nobody looks at you in a funny way. So I hope you will forgive me for answering even though I am far from being a professional writer like you. I am actually a programmer and I studied psychology too for a few years, but never finished. And I struggled a lot with your question, especially since I am too a very structured and planned writer most of the time, and I ask myself if I should not be able to write more freely and just feel when it is right and write that down. But why do we like to read or view stories? Because as one of the few animals of this wourld, we are able to learn by watching others. (model-learning, social learning, etc.) Story arcs are needed for humans to be interested in a story, they need it to perceive it and respond to it as information in the human learning circle. So I believe these arcs are very important to stories, if not the most important thing. Only strong characters with strong antagonists can carry those arcs without seeming too blunt and constructed. And I think that only strong storylines or strong character developments can carry beauitiful words and pictures as well, if you like to create literature as well. (Its another question if I am able to create those..) Off course some people with long experience in creative fields can feel their way around a good arc, they go through the stages naturally. Often you can tell an actor turned writer from the beautiful scene arcs they manage to just shake out of their pens (well keyboards, so maybe shaking is not the way to go). But in order for a story to work on all the levels, and keep going to the last page or minute, it needs to have structure, I think. More structure than you can create by flying pants alone. These arcs do not have to be in the action, they can also be in the emotional development of a figure. They can be spaced differently to get different speeds for different genres, or even be grouped or reverted (flashbacks, reversed stories) but still be interesting to a human. Especially if you are writing crime stories, you definitely have a feeling for distorting the story arcs to build up tention and suspension. In order for that to work, off course, your arcs must be very strong. Humorists work a lot with that too, creating comic tension by seemingly violating our inbuild and expected arcs, creating comic tention and funny situations. Different people may be good at different parts of creating, at differents arcs and give emphasis to different parts of a good stories requirements. That's what makes it interesting to read/view. But some structure we all need, and with some book and films, you can tell they need some more, I think, but then again, I am only a technician with a weird hobby (writing) so what do I know. Thank you very much for sharing these thoughts about writing. Andrea

Andrea, Andrea, Andrea. Fantastic to hear from someone who is student of psychology. Thanks for your excellent reply. I agree that there are experienced artists you can feel their way through the arc. For a relative newcomer like me, I still need a map. (The map analogy breaks down sometime. Like the story I'm working on now. The destination eludes me. It'll come though.) And the very best of luck with your (not so) weird hobby.

I plan Tony. I write complicated plots so I have to. I always have a lot going on, i have to keep the pace going, I have to have that ticking clock (as you say) and I have to tie up all lose ends. So I write a layout of the story and outline and delve into each character's bios and make sure I have everything sorted before I start. And as always I start and realise I still didn't plan enough. !

My ideas most often start as a poem, then short stories then scripts. Often I get totally wrapped in my characters I don't want to let them go so I often find writing a Series Bible very useful. When adapting a book by someone else, I need to find the poem in it before I can begin to deconstruct, re-imagine or re-write for the screen.

Tony, thank you. I am a beginner, I wrote a few short stories and one screenplay. I work at the same way you do, but until now it came naturally for me and I didn’t think about it. lately I got stuck. I have ideas, great ideas, but they are only ideas! After I read your post I realized that I didn’t do what I have done on my first script. I didn’t come to know my characters as well as I should, I didn’t do enough research, basically I wasn’t patient enough. So thank you.

I agree @Alle Segretti - and as you write them, sometimes you discover they are not suitable for the screen at all and would make a better play, or book or even game!