On Writing : Ask Me Anything (AMA) Wednesday 4/24 to Thursday 4/25 - What is a Ghostwriter? by Jonathan Jordan

Cool mug, Jonathan Jordan! Fellow ghostwriter here (screenplays). Thanks for having this AMA. When do ghostwriters get credit for their work?

What a great opportunity to learn about ghostwriting work. You must learn so much doing that work. Thanks for doing this AMA, Jonathan Jordan!

Hi Jonathan Jordan! Thanks for doing this AMA for us! You mentioned blogging and editing as a way to break into ghostwriting. Could you tells us more about how and how to pitch yourself as a ghostwriter?

fantastic Jonathan Jordan

Hi Jonathan Jordan - how do you balance your personal projects and ghostwriting? Thanks in advance!

Hi, Jonathan, do you qualify to join WGA? Pro's & con's joining a guild from your career perspective, and how do you get paid when you ghost write- do payments go through your reps' account, or what? Thks

Maurice Vaughan thanks! Mug design is my mental getaway... When it comes to getting credit as a ghostwriter, it all comes down to what's in your agreement with the author. If you agreed to work for no credit, then no dice. But depending on the project, some ghostwriters negotiate for credit. If you've ever seen a book that has a credit like this "By Famous Author with Someone Else," then the "Someone Else" was almost certainly the ghostwriter but negotiated to have credit. Otherwise, you'll often find us ghosts hiding out in the acknowledgment section of a book. Authors can choose NOT to acknowledge us, but many do. Since I'm also an editor and book coach, usually authors call me one of those in their "thank yous" so that we don't violate any NDAs.

Sam Sokolow it's one of my favorite parts of the job...I get a front row seat to some really cool insights and ideas I would've never come up with on my own. It's definitely made me a better human and businessperson!

Emily J Blogging and book editing (or even website editing) are great places to start to build up a portfolio and reviews. Ultimately, pitching myself comes down to recognizing the common fears an aspiring author has with writing a book: "I don't have enough time to write a book" and "I don't have enough talent to write a book." They recognize they need that second pair of eyes not just AFTER the book but in the actual creation process. I got into ghostwriting by first becoming a developmental editor. It's much easier to find people looking for editing, but developmental editing almost always requires a touch of ghostwriting in the process. That's how I made the leap myself. I used to look down on ghostwriters until I discovered it's just developmental editing on steroids.

Leonardo Ramirez greeeeeeat question. It's tough, just like balancing anything in life. What I have to keep in mind is that my book work (ghostwriting and editing) is what pays the bills most of the time, and my clients keep pretty standard working hours, so the bulk of my "9 to 5" schedule is devoted to them. But I work in screenwriting stuff to other parts of my week by blocking off time for it or doing it in the evenings after my kids are in bed (talk about balancing life stuff!) Just the other night, I finished up a rewrite on a script for my manager. Like anything in life, you make time for whatever your true priorities are!

Dan MaxXx a lot to tackle here! It's actually a WGA violation to enter a ghostwriting arrangement, so no, you can't use a ghostwritten screenplay to satisfy the terms of joining the WGA. I personally don't ghostwrite screenplays...only nonfiction books. My screenplays have my name on them. The nonfiction books I choose to work on feature ideas, stories, and concepts I'd never be able to come up with on my own. It's truly a collaborative effort with the author. As far as getting paid to ghostwrite, it depends on where the client is coming from. If they are an independent client who has approached me, then I invoice them directly based on the service agreement I have with them. If it's through a publisher/writing firm, then the publisher is paying me for my work. There actually are literary agents who represent ghostwriters. I started working with one very recently, but typically the arrangement is they get 15% so you just build that into the price you negotiate with the client.

Thanks Jonathan Jordan! And I would agree that the creative day begins when the kids are in bed! Mine is in college now but nothing has changed. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Cheers to all the creative moms and dads out there!

Leonardo Ramirez I find I'm more creative with some background noise anyway...coffee shop sounds, music, or one of my "writing" movies.

You're welcome, Jonathan Jordan. Thanks for the answer. I didn't know ghostwriters could negotiate for credit.

Maurice Vaughan yeah, it actually happens more than you realize. Now that you know about the "with" credit, you'll start to see ghostwriters EVERYWHERE next time you're at the bookstore! Traditional publishers have admitted that half of their nonfiction titles are ghostwritten and you'd be surprised how many fiction titles are, too.

I typically have soundtracks that influence my writing, Jonathan Jordan. I've not tried "writing movies" but I can see where that would be a cool influence. My favorite screenplay is "The Dark Knight" so every once in a while, I'll watch it to get the creative flow going.

Since it fits in here, I'll also post this blog I wrote recently on the 5 most common myths about ghostwriting for anyone who's interested... https://wordrobemedia.com/blog/5-myths-about-ghostwriting

Thanks for the link, Jonathan Jordan. Hush money. Haha

Ok that was a REALLY good article Jonathan Jordan. I'm a bit surprised someone compared ghostwriting to ChatGPT or Grammarly.

Thank you for sharing your time with us today, Jonathan Jordan! I also have to write with background noise like music, movies I've seen many times, or television shows that are very formulaic and straightforward. I can't work in silence, it actually makes me really antsy and distractable. But I've found that I can't listen to podcasts because I either miss what they're discussing or I give it too much of my attention. I also can't put anything on that takes real thought or focus to follow. It has to be easy viewing that I can listen to without much effort.

What common misconceptions do you feel that people have about ghostwriting?

Ashley Renee Smith One of the misconceptions I had myself before I actually got into it was thinking of ghostwriting as "settling." As if because I ghostwrite, it somehow makes me less talented. But then I thought about all the great artists and composers who were commissioned to create for their patrons...we wouldn't have most of Mozart or Michelangelo's works if it weren't for them being "paid to create art." Also, it doesn't disqualify me from writing my own material, fleshing out my own ideas. It's actually made me a better screenwriter because I've also had to learn how to be a better researcher and how to write in someone else's voice. I wouldn't call that "settling" any more!

I love that, Jonathan Jordan! Thank you for sharing that personal insight!

That's interesting that you once saw it as "settling" Jonathan Jordan. To me, it would seem that it's harder than working on your own stuff. Working on my stuff is easy because it's coming from "inside of me" and I can fathom it from its birth.

Solid point Leonardo Ramirez . I rarely get "page fright" (aka, writer's block) with ghostwriting projects because I'm not really having to ideate, right? Also, there's the motivation of keeping the lights on.

Where can a ghostwriter find clients, Jonathan Jordan?

Maurice Vaughan I typically recommend starting with your own direct network first, such as someone you know who has always been interested in writing a short memoir or a book for their business. The key here is for it to be short because you're not going to get paid much for the first couple. You're just building up proof and a portfolio. Some people recommend starting with somewhere like Upwork or Fiverr. You just need to know that the clientele of those platforms is looking for a cheap deal, not the best work...so I don't recommend hanging out there for too long. Still, it's a highly accessible way to get some initial experience and build the portfolio so you can go after better paying gigs. My first full-length titles came through a well-established business hybrid publisher working with executives, so it's good to be on the lookout and start applying for contract work with these kind of presses (reputable hybrid publishers of business nonfiction include Greenleaf Publishing, Amplify Publishing Group, and Advantage Media / ForbesBooks). And then I also recommend building a social presence on sites like LinkedIn because that's exactly where the ideal clients for a well-paying nonfiction business book are going to be hanging out. Two of my current clients found me on LinkedIn. I also recommend learning developmental editing which shares a lot with ghostwriting but can be a little easier to land clients for building your portfolio. My intro to ghostwriting actually came from some developmental editing gigs.

Thanks for the answer, Jonathan Jordan. I've used Upwork to get ghostwriting jobs, but I mainly get them here on Stage 32.

Jonathan Jordan Hey, I hope I may ask, how much do you charge for your services? do you do any editing work and how much do you charge for that? I'm doing what I can to write my own stories most of which are in my longlines, I'm still a bit new to writing being I'm more geared to doing comics and I only have to write the scripts for them which is like writing movie scripts but trying to write full-on stories in book form is a bit of a challenge but I hope to lean from it to be a better writer.

Jonathan Jordan thanks for doing the AMA, Jonathan. Can you tell us what your first ghost-writing gig was, or is that against the rules of some ghostly union rules? Did it make you think you could do this as a career, or was it something that you thought could help pay the bills, whilst you worked on screenwriting? I always thought ghost-writers were for celebrities who couldn't write!

Thanks for being here Jonathan Jordan . I'm sure many members are interested in what you have to share with us.

Gregory Barone So to make sure we're on the same page, the ghostwriting and editing I do is for nonfiction business books...though I'll occasionally edit fiction if the project is right. Pricing ultimately depends on the scope of the project, including anticipated timeline, final word count, etc. But it's fair to say that I don't ghostwrite a full-length book for anything less than $15K. I have a current project that will end up being closer to $30K when all is said and done. You can scale your pricing based on experience, accolades, etc. But in general, once you have a few titles under your belt, I wouldn't do anything for less than $10K

Gregory Barone Just realized I didn't answer the bit about editing. Depends on what kind of editing someone needs. If they need a full developmental edit, my rate is going to be around $0.08-$.10/word. If I'm just doing a line edit or copy edit, it'll be more like $0.04-.06/word. When I ghostwrite, I'm also factoring in part of the developmental edit cost because ghostwriting and dev editing share a lot in common.

Geoff Hall I can answer your question without breaking any NDAs! The funny thing is, the first ghostwriting I ever did, I didn't even realize that's what I was doing. Around 2013, I started doing some copywriting for extra money, writing blogs for various websites, but they would take the credit. Some of those jobs were technically ghostwriting...they'd give me the topic, keywords, ideas to include, and then I'd craft the article/blog. Similar with my first paying client...I was doing a developmental edit on her book which was a collection of memoirs. Many of the memoirs were actually surveys people had filled out and in the process of the edit, I had to turn those responses into narratives. I didn't even realize what I was doing at the time was ghostwriting those portions of the book. Totally changed my outlook on ghostwriting!

Maurice Vaughan that's awesome you're finding clients on here!

Jonathan Jordan Thanks.

Thanks, Jonathan Jordan. I mainly get clients because I'm active on Stage 32. Thanks again for having this AMA. It's incredibly helpful!

For anyone who's interested in more info about freelancing rates (ghostwriting, editing, etc.), a good starting point is to check out the EFA rates page. https://www.the-efa.org/rates/ If you're just starting out, then start on the low end, but this gives you a way to show prospects you're not just making stuff up. I've been doing it long enough, I charge on the high end/off the scale depending on the project.

Thanks Jonathan Jordan. Where would I find story development (fiction/consulting)?

Thanks for sharing the link, Jonathan Jordan.

Jonathan Jordan thanks for your answer, Jonathan. I’m so glad your answer won’t lead to any kneecapping, or some such torture. Do you think that your ghostly gigs helped you gain confidence for screenwriting?