Screenwriting : False Protagonist in Films by Mehdi Javaherian

Orson Welles is definitely not the main character in Third Man, that's Joseph Cotten's character (Holley Martin?). I've only seen Third Man and Psycho on your list, and Psycho does have a weird structure to it in which the audience is faked out by Janet Leigh's character as we're made to think she's the main character until ... the shower scene, and it's Anthony Perkins' character that's actually the main character (and he is also the antagonist, which is very rare to have too).

Dear Dan! Thanks for the Input. I've got to watch "Dress to Kill" once again; I guess False Protagonist has been used in many crime and detective movies. And you are right:"Here in USA, American (Hollywood) Movies follow a specific storytelling and look," and that's why American independent movies are my most favorite.

Dear Eric! That's right! Antagonist and protagonist at the same time in the Psycho; that's rare and very weird, especially for a Hollywood movie; that's going to be my new list of films to contemplate on. Thanks! And yes! Welles is not the protagonist of the third man, and sadly I have to remove this great one from the list.

Dear FRANCISCO! Thanks for the comment and your time! Sure the False protagonist and the main character are not the same; In my post, I didn't develop and make it clear; Thanks very much for your explanation. The first 10 pages have its own rules everywhere in the world, and I'm looking for the ones who do it with their main characters after page 10.

Introducing the Antagonist before the Ptotagonist is another interesting approach.

Humm! That's a good one to think about; Thanks, Fleurette!

The story may be present but oftentimes starts before the protagonist knows it.

The Antagonist /villain gives meaning to the story,

The hero is measured by the conflicts he's up against and how he outmatch or beat his/her opponent (s)

The mightier the enemy...

The Great Gatsby? That story has always fascinated me!

I think the idea is great, the bate and switch sometime you see it in TV shows. I think the TV that did the best job with that right off the top of my head was Agents of Shield when Grant Ward was on the team until the "uprising" so basically a sleeper cell... if that makes sense to anyone

Martina! Exactly; The Great Gatsby is a very good example; Why not mentioned in this list, because it's more a book for me than a film. Of all Francis Capolla, his adaption is my least favorite.

Dear Laronda! I haven't seen this Agents of Shield, but I agree with you: Episodic Storytelling in TV shows, can and have used this False Protagonist many times on different levels.

Sorry, but Gatsby is not the protagonist, nor a "false protagonist" in The Great Gatsby. Nick Carraway is the protagonist, clearly. The story is told from his POV. Gatsby is the title or main character. A protagonist and the main character are not necessarily the same person in a story. ;)

Mehdi: I'm curious how you consider "The Past" to have a false protagonist?

Sorry, Beth, but Gatsby is the protagonist, and Nick Carraway is the main character. Gatsby is the center of the drama. Nick is only a spectator. His voice telling the story makes him the main character, but it's Gatsby who has a desire and who pursues it. ;)

No, sorry, you have that mixed up. Gatsby does not change. Nick does.

There are several arguments both ways—even that there are two protags. :)

Dear Beth! How about looking at it like this: If there is a Protagonist, in such drama, who stands as it's Antagonist? Is it Tom the Husband?

But I agree It's both ways argument and Title False Protagonist adds confusion to the topic.

Shaun! This one is a great argument; I almost get into fist fight with Iranian Filmmakers on such matter(Just joking).I haven't yet met anyone who agrees with me. I take a strong stand here: The Story of "the Past," By Farhadi, 2013, Is not about an Iranian man going back to Paris to do sign his divorce papers, while his now-ex-wife is pregnant from an Arab-french, Named Samir. It is about Samir whose wife has committed suicide, and is in hospital, while his lover is pregnant and her ex-husband is flying back to Paris to sign for divorce.

Mehdi: Thanks for responding. Interesting take, although I can't say i agree. However, I'm curious - saying with Farhadi for a moment, who would you say is the protagonist in "About Elly?"

Shaun! That's a tricky one too now that you ask! I have seen the film just one, and I've not read the script yet: I Think It is Golshifteh Farahani's character in the film. What do you think?

Never heard differently - As Mehdi said, the antagonist defines the protagonist.

Dear Mehdi. It has also been argued that Nick also serves as an antagonist or 'antagonist force' in The Great Gatsby because he sees through all the other characters' issues or crap. That he puts pressure on them. But they all stay their course, and it is Nick that is deeply affected and changed by what he has witnessed. It has also been argued that there are two different stories with two protags that intersect—hence all the arguing. Me, I agree with John August: "If a story works, it works — regardless of whether characters are fulfilling their archetypal roles. So be wary of trying to wedge characters into defined classes, simply because that’s how they “should” fit."

https://johnaugust.com/2005/whats-the-difference-between-hero-main-chara.... :)

Mehdi:

Although we may disagree regarding, "The Past," I would have to agree - Golshifteh's character Sepideh would be the Protagonist.

Back to "The Past." If Samir is the protagonist, who do you believe is the antagonist?

Nick's change of mind is passive though. He changes his mind and refuses that world because he witnessed events that Gatsby initiated. In fact, Nick does absolutely nothing apart from reporting what he sees. Plus, I don't agree with that definition of a protagonist as not all protagonists have an arc. In "Forrest Gump", is Jenny the protagonist? She is the one changing.

Nick changes. A change can be literal or figurative. The experience changes him as a person. And a character doesn't always have an arc, nor does she/he have to have one. :) My two cents... Forrest Gump is the main character and protagonist and hero. I view Jenny as the female protagonist. But Forrest Gump is not a conventional film, which brings me back to the John August quote and blog post I shared, "....be wary of trying to wedge characters into defined classes, simply because that's how they "should" fit." :)

Shaun! Regarding "the Past' I think there are two Antagonists if we assume Samir is the Protagonist: His dying wife, who committed suicide to, somehow, stop Samir from his love affair, and the Daughter of his lover who has started all the troubles Samir is facing. (Do You Agree?)

Beth! Thanks for sharing that link! Agust's definitions of Hero, Main Character, and the Protagonist were very interesting, though I prefer the old school of Cambell. But, I guess something is missing here: The Importance a the Choices the characters make. What makes a character the main one or the protagonist is the choices he/she makes which subsequently changes the course of the Drama; and if there is an Arc, it should have been built on the poles of their choices.

Martina! As far as I remember the novel, Nick, as you mentioned, is very passive; he makes no decision or any choices; and if there is any change in his perspective at the end of the story, is almost the very similar understanding we reach as the reader. (I better mark the Novel as my first re-read in 2018).

You're welcome, Mehdi. ;) John August is an erudite screenwriter with 20+ years (and still counting) of professional working experience. Not everything "fits" perfectly into Campbell. So I'll just say I don't agree with some thoughts on character (main versus protag) and respectfully leave it at that. ;) Oh, and just to clarify... because this is the Screenwriting forum I was commenting on the screenplay written by Baz Luhrmann & Craig Pearce, and the film The Great Gatsby, starring Tobey Maguire and Leonardo DiCaprio, not the book. Although I have read the book several times as well. Best to you!

I'm enjoying the conversation here! After Beth's comment on the differences, I started to study more about the subject, and it seems almost common sense that the Main is the Point-of-view- Character and the Protagonist is the Central One in the story... I've never thought of it like this; though the main idea of the post was to come with new titles of movies which bring out the Protagonist very late in the story with the help of a false protagonist.

But back to The Great Gatsby: I still believe Gatsby is the protagonist and Nick is the main character who works as a false protagonist for some pages through the novel. (Beth! Do you agree on that?)

Nope. Lol! Gatsby is the main character, hence the title The Great Gatsby. The story is mostly about him, yes? Perhaps you feel he is both, the main character and the protagonist. I don't. But again, I'm looking at how the book was adapted to screen. You look up the film and Nick is often labeled as the protagonist. Lol! The protagonist is typically the film's POV. We (the audience) usually follow and experience the story through the protagonist, and that person may or may not be the main character. Main characters may affect those around them but they themselves may not change. But again, if a story works, it works. If you are interested, John August also does a podcast with screenwriter Craig Mazin called Scriptnotes--it's great stuff! Between them they have 40+ years experience. They are voices of reason in this wonderful madness of screenwriting. I think, anyway! Again, best to you!

Mehdi: I can't say I would agree with you. But then again, as we disagree on who the protagonist is, I guess that should come as no surprise. The core of my arguement is that Samir's wife spends most of the story off screen and therefore I believe relegates her to a minor character in his backstory. The question ultimately is whose outer motivation drives the plot. I wanted to let you know that as my wife is Persian, I'm actually in Tehran right now and will be here until the end of the month. If you would like to meet to discuss in person, I would welcome the chance. Let me know. :-)

S.

Dear Shaun! I have the same argument with my wife too, and she doesn't agree with me at all. In this curious case of "The Past," almost everything has already happened in the past, and we see the reveal of the events on the screen; and that makes a lot of confusions... But I'm so excited to hear you're in Tehran. Let's meet!

Don't forget Fargo. Margie comes in kinda late, and the main POV shifts from Jerry to her when she appears.