I am convinced that the best screenwriters are, in fact, great poets. Why? Because poets with so few words express much that some writers in several hundred-page novels fail to do.
That is why I think that all those who want to become good screenwriters should start with a short film script first. And the shorter the better, 4 to 6 pages! If you manage to write a great four-page story, you'll write even better in a hundred pages.
The practical sides of this strategy are the following:
First, you will need much less time to write a short script than a hundred page script.
Second, much less time will go by to answer whether you wrote a good script or not. Whether you submitted it for a competition or if you asked for someone's expert opinion.
Third, you are much more likely to make a short film than a feature film. You can also make a short movie yourself with your mobile phone. If those who won the Oscars can, you can too! There is a much better chance of your work being noticed by someone at a short film festivals than by torturing yourself and looking for a way to get someone serious to just read your feature film script!
So to become a good screenwriter, become a good poet first!
What do you think about that?
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I think brevity helps instill followthrough, especially if you turn it into a short. A bad script that gets produced is better that a good script that sits on a shelf.
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Poetry was my gateway drug. <3
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Well...clears throat...not to brag, but I do happen to be a poet Insert smirk here, ha!
But on a more serious note, poetry has helped me a lot when transitioning into screenwriting, but conversely, I've found that screenwriting now has added to my style of writing as a poet as well. Hopefully they both meld together to give my writing the creative edge to create art that aids my journey as a screenwriter. Thanks for sharing, Stevan!
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Imo Wimana Chadband not smirking.
Short Film, I suggest the Rode Film Festival. They have heaps of prizes and tour has to be 2 mins or less.
Fewer words is always best. I did a business writing course when I was young. A telegram from the 1800’s read.
“due to your endeavours to cheap me, I will destroy you”
No chance of a misunderstanding
There's 0 evidence that writing poetry leads to a screenwriting career, and making short films is not a new revelation to employment in the film Industry of whatever country. Shorts are just auditions. The same as amateur pro racers driving short dirt track races, or young basketball players competing in sneaker-sponsored tournaments.
The goal is employment.
Dan, I have expressed my opinion and my thinking. I see that you have a lot of experience regarding this thinking of mine. I suppose you have seriously dealt with this thinking of mine. Surely you've done some serious research on this? How many screenwriters have you covered in your research? What conclusions did you reach? Tell us all how many of these screenwriters you covered in your research write poetry? What did these successful screenwriters tell you when you asked them if they were engaged in poetry? What is the "evidence" for your so confident attitude? Did you publish your research somewhere?
Best,
Stevan
Dan, Regarding the short film script, I have also expressed my thinking. So if you didn't understand, my thinking is about the time spent writing. Also my thinking is about perfecting the writing technique by dealing with short form. Because if you've been struggling with writing a feature film for months, I think it's better to spend a lot less time writing a short film. So what you don't seem to understand is that I think it's useful and wise to write short films because you see the results of your work faster!
Best,
Stevan
Dan, My research on the topic of my thinking that I outlined in my post lasted two minutes and these are my first results:
https://www.writeyourscreenplay.com/podcast-birdman-writing-a-screenplay-is-like-writing-a-poem/BTW, what Jacob Krueger wrote is the first time I've seen it, and it takes a few moments on the internet.
So it is no longer 0, here is EVIDENCE number 1.
Dan, EVIDENCE number 2
https://gointothestory.blcklst.com/the-poetry-of-screenwriting-c7a2427cbd84
So Dan, before you make such confident statements, take a look at the internet. It won't take you long. The claims you make without argument do harm only to yourself and not to someone else.
Dan, EVIDENCE number 3
https://www.writermag.com/improve-your-writing/poetry/writers-should-rea...
Dan, EVIDENCE number 4
https://gointothestory.blcklst.com/poetry-and-screenwriting-f460ee9e98d9
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Stevan, you could search the internet and make a case for anything.
Didn't mean to trigger your emotions.
Best.
Stevan. Those are not evidence they are just theories.
I'm good thanks, Dan. My idea is to start a discussion about how important it is to write short film scripts in order to advance your script writing for feature films. So is my opinion on the connection between poetry and screenwriting, just my thinking, nothing more. That's just my opinion, not some scientific statement of fact. I also think that short scripts make it easier for a writer to get his script to make a movie, which also helps the writer gain confidence in his work.
So, it is only my opinion that I wanted to share with others and in return to hear the opinion of others.
Thanks for engaging in the discussion!
Dan Guardino, Of course! But this is evidence that my thinking (which is also a theory) is not alone! I still think poetry and script writing are very much connected! The crux of my answer was that the terminology used by Dan MaxXx (0 evidence) is appropriate for science, not art!
I want to talk here about what you think about my vision of how to improve the quality of writing and how to make it easier to see your story on the big screen at festivals, while in every way we try to get someone interested in our screenplay for feature film.
Thanks for the comment!
Dan Guardino,
Did you read all the articles I listed? What do you think about what is written in them?
What do you think about other things I wrote about in my post than the comments I had with Dan MaxXx?
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Screenwriters Haiku
The world wants them,My screenplays made into films,
Buy them now, Disney!
(Best fortunes in your creative endeavors, Stevan and fellow poets!)
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I just glanced at the articles after reading your discussion with Dan M. Your theory might work for some people. The problem with screenwriting is nobody really knows what will work for anyone. Personally I think writing economically takes a lot of practice and is extremely important. Most people in the business know that so when they see an overwritten screenplay they assume the screenwriter does not have a lot of experience and figure reading their script will make them work too hard and be a waste of their time. That is just my philosophy however. As far as writing short films go I wouldn't know because I've never written one and have no reason to do so unless I wanted to help a producer who was trying to break in.
Dan Guardino,
That was exactly my thought. In order not to make mistakes, it is easier for a writer to perfect his or her skill in a short script. You will need much less time and you will master the skill faster. Maybe I'm wrong?
Bill,
Poets express themselves with few words. This can greatly help them not to write the script as a novel - overwritten. Maybe I'm wrong again?
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Producers Haiku
We have financing,,
Of course we have the funding,
Can you buy us lunch?
(Best fortunes in your creative endeavors, Stevan and fellow poets!)
"Great Movie Dialogue Is Cinematic Poetry" - By Ken Miyamoto from ScreenCraftJuly 1, 2018
https://thescriptlab.com/features/9193-3-unspoken-truths-about-writing-g...
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Script Readers Haiku
I read your whole script,
'Cept for ev'ry thing between,
The first and last page.
(Best fortunes in your creative endeavors, Stevan and fellow poets!)
Short story:
“For sale: baby shoes, never worn,”Who is the writer?
"For example, since we only have 120 pages to tell our story, screenwriters have to learn how to create the greatest impact with the fewest amount of words; poets face the same challenge. Also, a great screenplay is a visual one; so, too, poems." - Scott Myers, Jun 8, 2008, https://gointothestory.blcklst.com/poetry-and-screenwriting-f460ee9e98d9
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Being a poet makes you a better screenwriter only if your stuff gets produced and it’s better than everyone else’s and the people you worked with say, “Wow, we couldn’t have done that if you weren’t such a good poet.” ‘Cause otherwise it’s all in your head.
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Stevan, while I see you feel strongly about poetry and its possible influence on screenwriting, I think the more relevant element shared by these two different forms is brevity. Just because two things share one trait, that does not necessarily make them the same. Sure, any form of writing can help inform another, but that may not be the case for everything and everyone. There are no absolutes. You can write anything with brevity and you do not have to be a poet in order to do so. ;)
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About shorts, yes, I think writing and producing shorts is a great practice and can lead to other possibilities, of course. However, there are plenty of overwritten shorts too. Lol! Again, I think it boils down to brevity and learning how to write economically. :) If looking for short films from around the world check out: https://www.shortoftheweek.com. Best to you!
Beth, It's not just about brevity:
"When you’re writing dialogue, you have to approach it as your opportunity to conjure those words that we usually think of after the fact, after that fight, after that first date, after the big play of a big game, after your boss walks away, etc.
It’s cinematic poetry. All dialogue in any cinematic situation — whether it’s a single line, an elongated retort, an angry rant, a preachy speech, or fast-paced exchange between characters — is poetry for the screen.
The definition of poetry is a literary work in which special intensity is given to the expression of feelings and ideas by the use of distinctive style and rhythm.
Every line you write should have a special intensity to express the feelings and ideas of your characters, all while having a distinct style and rhythm to any single character’s speech patterns or any exchanges between two or more characters.
In poetry, you often build to a moment as well. Each line is placed where it is placed for a reason. While some poetry can rely on the draw of rhyme, cinematic poetry relies on the draw of rhythm and style." - By Ken Miyamoto from ScreenCraftJuly 1, 2018
https://thescriptlab.com/features/9193-3-unspoken-truths-about-writing-g...
Thanks for your comment!
Beth, Also, I did not say that poetry and screenwriting are the same! What I am saying is that, in my humble opinion, a script can only be better if the screenwriter has a poetic soul, whether or not he/she has written poems. Of course I think it's better if the screenwriter was already writing poetry, even if he/she wasn't publishing it.
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Stevan, you are making a direct comparison and drawing conclusions so I responded to that comparison. That's all. ;) You certainly are entitled to your own opinion, as am I, and I just don't fully agree with you. It's perfectly okay to have different opinions, different perspectives. ;) Me, I have not written poetry nor do I read poetry. But I've read hundreds and hundreds of screenplays. Love film. I am an artist too. I'd say being over-indulgent or too precious or using too much purple prose is not always a good thing either, nor is it proof of "artistry." Every individual screenplay should be considered within its own context, yes? Poetry or not. Again, best to you!
Beth, The script reader, the agent, the producer, the director ... all of them have enough to read only the first page of the script and already then decide whether to read it further. There are strict rules for writing scripts, not to mention them now. At no point did I question them. You can never have the same feeling when looking at an identical copy of Mona Lisa and the original. That "something" you experience when you look at the original of Mona Lisa, or when you look at the vault of the Sistine Chapel that painted Michelangelo (I saw both personally) is, in my opinion, exactly the same as "something" that I experience when I read Sergei Jesenin, , Byron, Neruda, Crane ... or I watch the films of Felini, Bergman, Almodovar, Scorsese, Cameron, the Coen brothers, Nolan, Besson ... My opinion is that a great script, without it's "something", is great only technically. By the way, this "something" also comes from the technical similarity between the form of the script and the poetry, of course in my humble opinion.
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Stevan: You kinda look like the guy who wrote that short story. Heh-heh.
I don't think you have to be a good poet in order to be a good screenwriter, but there are similarities other than brevity/economy in some poetry and in some screenwriting.
Dramatic monologue can have a verse-like quality to it. So can interior monologues. Verse drama is a writing style that the Greeks utilized, as did Shakespeare, and many others. It still existed in a mainstream way throughout the early years of modern writing.
That doesn't mean that every single line of every single novel, play or screenplay was written in that style, but it was still influential to early modern writers. And even the work of hard-boiled writers like Raymond Chandler had a staccato-like resonance to it at times (and utilized many other literary devices as well) .
Some of the characters in The Coen Brothers films speak at times in verse-like ways, and also utilize other literary devices like alliteration, metaphor, stichomythia, meter and cadence that add to the "poetic" quality of what they say. It's a "sound" outcome, and a "meaning" outcome as well. It's form and content - how they say it, and what they say. The dialogues from characters like The Dude from The Big Lebowski, Hi from Raising Arizona, and Ulysses and Delmar from O Brother Where Art Thou? contain quite a bit of verse or metered style - as do the dialogues of Anton and Carson from No Country for Old Men. Some of the dialogues of some other modern screenwriters like Ingmar Bergman, Pedro Aldomovar, Spike Lee, Zack Helm, Emma Thompson, Woody Allen, David Mamet, Barry Jenkins, Nick Hornby, Jim Jarmush and Quentin Tarantino's characters at times also yield "poetic" results. Other writers do, too, and some early films are loaded with verse-like and metered dialogues, and other literary devices.
And notice I qualify my declarative statements with the words "some" and "at times."
Best fortunes in your creative endeavors, Stevan! .
P.S. One of my favorite "poetic" lines is from the film The Christmas Story, as told by Ralphie: "We plunged into the cornucopia quivering with desire and the ecstasy of unbridled avarice." I love that line. Heh-heh.
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You said, “So to become a good screenwriter, become a good poet first! What do you think about that?”
Beth said, “You can write anything with brevity, and you do not have to be a poet in order to do so.” I agree with her because I am a good screenwriter and I never wrote a poem.Beth also said, “I think it boils down to brevity and learning how to write economically.” Again, I agree with her because I learned how to write economically without ever writing a poem.
You are arguing theory as if it is based on real facts and your theory is not based on facts. The reality is you don't have to be a poet to write economically.
Dan Guardino, When I said: "So to become a good screenwriter, become a good poet first!" , I said it as a kind of metaphor, not a command.
It's not just about economics. When I answered Beth, I said it was about "something", which I think when I find in a movie, it sets that movie apart from all the other movies, no matter how great the other movies are "technically", but they don't have that "something."
That "something" I just refer to as poetry as an example. It also has painting, sculpture, music ... and in my opinion it should have a movie I want to watch, or a script I want to read.
Thanks for your comment!
Bill, To be a good screenwriter, you have to be a good poet, I said more as a kind of metaphor.
The point is that I think poetics, in the broadest sense of the word, as defined by Aristotle, can be that significant spice that will distinguish great scripts from good scripts, and great films from good films.
Thank you for participating in the discussion!
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Stevan, I too can decide if I wish to read further by the first line. Lol! Sorry, respectfully, you are rather telling me and others how they should interpret art or poetry or film. That's a perspective and a choice that only an individual truly can sense and decide for themselves, yes? Me, I hold an art degree. I too have seen and studied the art you mention above. For me, I see great cinema as great cinema. Poetry never enters my mind. But that's just my perspective. I am a visual person, first. I think you are using the term "poetry" as a generalized label and are applying it to mean much more than what the word literally defines. You are using "poetry" as, say, others may use "voice" or "art," which is totally fine, of course, that's how you see it. But as both Dan M and Dan G said above, you are also arguing theory that doesn't quite hold up. Many of the articles you have shared (thanks for that!) are also using poetry as a comparison as a metaphor and as a means to talk about "art" in screenwriting and film, as a way to talk about all the wonderful intangible qualities that are often so hard to define. ;)
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And... Thank you, Stevan, for starting such a great discussion! Much appreciated! ;)
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Beth, Thank you for participating!
So, yes, Beth. Of course, I also used the comparison. Maybe I didn't explain it best, because English is not my native language.
You said these intangible qualities were hard to define. I tried to define those wonderful intangible qualities. I tried to compare poetry and film, or script. That's why I'm glad so many of you got involved in the discussion. To exchange views and opinions.
The word "voice" you used is precisely used in a situation where producers or agents are looking for a new scenario. They are not really looking for a new story as such. Through this story, like through a prism, or magnifying glass, they search for "fresh blood", they search for a writer who has a kind of fresh, "voice". If a writer really has that "voice" of his own, then they may not need a prism or magnifying glass, but simply that "voice" pops out of every page of the script.
Through reading the script, they seek out a new writer because they are not only interested in one particular story that they will like or not, but in order to find a new writer who has that particular, "voice" of his own and can write many more good and interesting stories
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Ah, no worries, Stevan. We figured it out. It's all good! Yes, it's so hard to put your finger on something truly intangible, yet we know it when we see it or read it. That's the beauty of the art of storytelling. :)
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Just to add a little to what Beth said about "vision"....that's one of the reasons why film is easily the most all-encompassing and collaborative art form. It combines so many forms of art, and of science.
A great example of that - where poetic writing meets the other arts (and sciences) in one of the highest points of cinema production is in Apocalypse Now, which was based on a great novel (and that was even adapted into an opera).
John Milius, Francis Ford Coppola, and Michael Herr sure wrote a great script in that one. The imagery, lighting, editing, shadowing, sound, acting, improvisation, choreography, effects, written story and its literary devices sure make for one great film.
Best fortunes in your creative endeavors, all!
Well done!
You couldn't find a better example!
I would add, without disdain, all the great filmmakers, "Amarcord" - Federico Fellini!
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Stevan. perhaps I did misunderstand what you were saying. Personally I don't try to write great screenplays and I don't know if I would know one if I saw one. I just write what I want to see on film and hope someone with money wants to produce it. Unlike most people here I don't give this stuff a lot of thought.
Dan G. Of course. That's great too!
In the movie industry, poetry is an unforgettable opening scene, poetry is an unforgettable dialogue, poetry is a scene of dying as in Blade Runner, poetry is every Fellini scene ...
No
Don’t confuse what the final product looks like or sounds like versus what the screenwriter is doing.
Christopher, Are you saying that the movie "Apocalypse Now" is not an absolute cinematic poetry? Of course if you watched the movie! Oh come on!
Does anyone who has watched Coppola's movie "Apocalypse Now" consider it to be the most perfect movie poetry?
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I am not going to wade into the swap of opinion that has formed here.
However, isn’t poetry about conveying emotion in brevity? If so, wouldn’t sharpen a writer’s prose. To be able to paint a vivid picture with less words sounds good.
Here is the first line of an Australian classic. Sums up the outback.
“I love a sunburnt country a land of sweep plains”
10 words that sum up my entire country and its spirit, better writing than I will ever achieve.
My dear friend, that is poetry !!!
"I sit in a paper boat and paddle the moon's shadow." This is my good friend's haiku.
Great introductory scene for horror, action, drama ...
It's about poetry! He/she who has ears will hear, who has eyes he/she will see, who has anything he/she will feel!