Time for an adult conversation about sex.
Here's an article by the NoFilmSchool people. And this is what its premise is:
“The typical refrain we hear online is that sex does not advance the plot, so why should it be in film and TV shows?
The plot is not why we watch movies and TV shows. Plot is just the stuff that happens, but it's not the soul of entertainment. If you were going to watch something that only had a plot, then why not just read the synopsis of a movie or TV show? Why experience it?”
Adding a further nuance to this, which I think makes sense is:
“The reason is that we come to film and TV not just for entertainment, but to feel something.”
And I would say that if the audience feels nothing, that if that character don’t help us feel or sense their intimacy, then maybe we have failed as filmmakers.
Over to you. What do you think about this? I know we’ve looked at this subject before, but I think this article gives a few more facets to the conversation.
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All great points, Geoff Hall. Include sex/nudity, don't include sex/nudity, that's up to the collective collaboration of the production not those who in all likelihood won't venture out to watch the final presentation anyway. To dramatize a sentiment, a feeling, an emotion we must "show" don't "tell," right? My biggest complaint when this topic comes up is how little pushback there is when it comes to dramatized violence, especially gun violence. Personally, I'd rather see characters undressed and communing in some fashion rather than their innards exposed and blown to smithereens. But that's just me.
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@ALL I’ve mixed feelings. There are instances where some dry hump or other banal scene gives a pathetic shock effect meant for audience go tell their friends “Did you see that?” Yet there’s films where the actual sex drives the plot either in subtext or actual nitty gritty. EG Je Taime Mon Plus, Serge Gainsbourg 1960’s & 1990’s Curtis Hanson LA Confidential & more recently 20 shades of grey. To me death & sex scenes must have a profound meaning. We need to care enough about the characters when they score or die.
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If sex scenes (or anything) don't move the plot forward (or reveal something about the characters), I say remove them, Geoff Hall. The article says, "It does not matter if sex scenes move the plot forward. They are added by the director and writer, they are there for adults or sometimes even just for vibes. They are a singular part of a vast artistic medium, and if you don't like them, look away." I fast forward most of the sex scenes in movies and shows. They're a waste of time.
I disagree with "The plot is not why we watch movies and TV shows." I watch some movies and shows just because the plots sound interesting or exciting. Ultimately, I think people watch movies and shows for a combination of things. Plot, theme, to feel something, characters, set pieces (like in a "Mission: Impossible" movie), etc.
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Ty Strange Show don't tell? I think that the last time I raised this, I mentioned that film is both sound and vision, therefore we must do both. I think the article also mentions the artistic aspect of filmmaking. The nude has a long history in art, as an aesthetic form. That to me is the crux of the matter, what aesthetically does it add to the sense of intimacy and a character's development. The rest is just eye candy.
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Maurice Vaughan I think it all depends on what we think of as plot. If it's just box-ticking, metronome-like punctuation or predictable (architectural) arcs, then that to me is a misplaced sentiment for logic in a film. I think the article is a little too black and white in its statement, perhaps with polemical intent.
However, you could argue that sex is a part of character development, without feeling the external necessities of moving the story forward, it may just be part of establishing the world of the story.
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I agree with Maurice Vaughan, wherein, I'd rather have scenes that move the plot forward rather than just be there for the sake of being there.
As for using sex to help the audience feel something, if watching the characters have sex is the only way the audience connects with the film, I think there's probably a problem with the film. Someone said (I can't remember who) if your characters have to kiss for the audience to know they're in love, then you've not written or directed it well. I agree with that. There are plenty of shows that I really like that have no sex in them but they have tons of great characters and relationships between the characters. Like the office. It's obvious from the beginning that Jim and Pam are in love, but they don't even kiss for 2 seasons, I think. Or the X files.
That's not to say that sex can't help the audience feel a moment or move the plot forward, I just personally think that sometimes sex is overused for "shock value".
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Lisa Lee the thing for me about film is that it’s a total environment and the characters form a great part in that, along with plot and world creation. I would argue against whoever said that about the kiss could be flipped and we could say that people in love kiss, they make love, they are naked and yet unashamed in front of each other. If that isn’t seeing (show don’t tell?) love in action, then for me, we are sanitising a story to fit current sensibilities. We are detracting from the story if we do that, because we are putting into it rules that any relationship couldn’t function under.
And does the anti-kissing league feel the same way about gun violence? Why is it always sex that becomes the new Hayes Code measure of decency?
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If it moves the plot forward, it shouldn't be much of an issue.
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You're right, Geoff Hall. Sex can be part of character development by establishing the world of the story. Great point. One type of sex scene that really annoys me is where a couple is lying in bed talking, then they have sex. It doesn't advance the plot, reveal anything about the characters, or establish the world. It's eye candy like you mentioned to Ty Strange. Or filler. And it's predictable.
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Maurice Vaughan yes me too. Those kind of sex scenes are sterile, there’s no passion in them and as you said, it doesn’t really develop the characters. All we get to know is that they understand the mechanics of sex. Hooray, any pupil that’s sat through a sex education class, understands that!
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I wrote a scene where the protagonist is taking a shower and old scars on her back are revealed to the audience, Geoff Hall. If I wanted to change it to a sex scene I could because the scene would reveal something about her past (the scars and how she got them) that she hides from people.
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I think it's like any other part of a film - there are times when a scene forwards the story and character development and times a scene doesn't. The sex scenes in BODY HEAT completely build the story, characters, their motivations and their decisions and pressures. There are also sex scenes in movies that obviously don't. You can say the same about action sequences. We understand how committed Popeye Doyle is when he's speeding around New York City chasing a subway. Not every chase in John Wick is completely necessary. I just don't think ideas like this are ever cut and dry. Some films have depth and some don't and sometimes that's by design.
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I love this discussion. My personal opinion and I'm sure everyone feels differently is that sex can be important to the development of the character's personality, relationships, and the plot. I watched one show, and they went from holding hands then suddenly the female lead was pregnant, and I was like- where did that come from? So, I think hitting those milestones is essential. However, I don't feel the need to watch the closest thing to porn in the middle of a great story. I personally don't feel the need for graphic detail of what is going on unless it is plot-related (ex. Fifty Shades). I generally prefer a PG-13 level (keep it underneath the covers). I think sex scenes are like dessert. You should leave them wanting more, too much and it starts to taste bad.
That could stem from an awkward moment years ago when I first met my husband's sister's husband. It was my first trip to Ireland; I met my husband's sister and her husband for the first time, and we stayed at their house. My husband had gone to the pub to meet some friends and I stayed home watching TV with my sister and brother-in-law. We put on True Detective. My sister-in-law has to go to work the next morning and decides to go to bed. Now, it's just my brother-in-law and I watching the show. Suddenly, a very detailed sex scene comes on. I am looking around the room, thinking "Do I look, not look, leave the room, sit there, say something, don't? What should I do?!" He breaks in asking "Why are Americans so prudish?" To which I reply with the first thing that pops into my head, "We are descended from the Puritans." And that is the story of how I met my brother-in-law.
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Doesn't bother me one bit. There are a lot of things put in movies today just to check boxes.
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Jill Godley That sounds terrible. There have been times when I'd be watching a movie with one of my parents and didn't realize there would be a sex scene. I definitely made up an excuse to leave the room haha
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That's the worst, Lisa Lee.
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Jill Godley such a cool story, Jill. From Puritans to Pruditans? Although, whilst studying history I came across an academic article about a Puritan woman’s diary and it was full of bedroom antics, including role play. That kinda changed my view of the prudish Puritans for good!
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the job of a screenwriter sometimes is not just to move the plot along, but to get to the cool scene thats fun. that can be comedy, action a spookem up or sex-if you can make they fit the story thats great and thats your job-if not your job is to do it as smoothly as one possible.
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Geoff Hall that is funny Geoff that should be a story "Prudence The frisky Puritan" I am just not sure if it should be a screenplay or a musical, lol.
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I don’t find sexual intimacy to be important if it doesn’t drive the story forward or heightens a situation, like a wife about to walk through the door while her husband is with the neighbor in the living room.
Something that gives the audience a sense of anxiety like, “he’s about to get caught.” Then the wife’s cell ring because the kid is sick at school so she never enters…. Lol
That would really give me anxiety because you would want her to know what he’s doing. And although she’s right there at the door, it just escapes her attention.
Anyhow, they do say that sex sells, but I’d like to reference Quentin Tarantino who doesn’t like sex scenes in his movies.
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Jill Godley oh, definitely a musical. You could then have a bedroom song about their sex lives. It would prove interesting and probably would be hilarious!
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Antonio M. haha, well that’s funny about Tarantino, because everything else is in his films, including brain-matter, but hey, let’s draw the line around sex. Maybe he just doesn’t like writing sex scenes?
In my novel there’s a whole chapter on a very intimate scene, called The Art of Touch. It took me ages to write and choreograph it.
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What about sex education? The season 1 finale with Otis? I'd say that really moved the plot forward.
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If we dissect something too much it becomes meaningless. Music is made up of notes. So we are not interested in the notes when we go to a concert. We don’t know we are, but we are. If the singer is off key, they are singing the wrong notes.
The way you make an audience feel something is with plot. No plot, no emotion.
I enjoy an academic chat. But I don’t think I’ll follow this link.
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I think sex scenes have the ability to add substance to a film because films often imitate daily life. Like how dinner/meal scenes or people cussing up a storm are included in films - because that's what people do in their lives. However, I do find that many films and shows have featured gratuitous intimate scenes and after a while it gets...ugh. To me, that's no different than extreme violence. My other issue with sex scenes is how inaccurate they can be regarding female pleasure.
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Abeeha Alam I agree, Abeeha. I think we need to regain the ‘art’ of the sex scene and lose the sensationalising or shock technique.
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I bought a movie ticket for "No Hard Feelings" cause I heard Actress Jennifer Lawrence does a full frontal nude scene.