Cinematography : Help by Ty Stone

hey ty I'm a gaffer/DP I've worked on afew things and the way I started was by reading and going out and doing I would suggest you start with learning lighting ratio and how f/stop shutter speed and iso contribute to a useable image in film and go to b&hphoto and learn about the current equipment currently used in the industry when i started I had zero help not even from family so you have hunt everywhere whay information buy a dslr all the talented dp I know havr one do they can practice on and use for jobs

My Advice for Aspiring Cinematographers If you can, take a photography class that includes using a manual film camera, a darkroom, developing film and making enlargements. This will teach you about the inner workings of a camera, about shutter speeds and f-stops. The enlarger is basically a camera backwards. Instead of letting light in from the outside, it projects light from the inside. You still use f-stops and shutter speeds, timing. You don’t have to do that, but you can learn a lot from it. Next, experiment with different lenses. Take the same shot with a wide angle, a normal, and a telephoto lens. See the difference in perspective and depth of field. take close shots, medium shots and wide shots. Learn the terms. You can google a filmmaker glossary, or a cinematographer’s glossary, to learn the terms of the business. Immerse yourself in film. Watch movies and take note of what you like and don’t like about movies. Read movie reviews. Find out what others like and don’t like about movies. Pay close attention to the shots you like. Ask why they decided to use a certain shot. Why a close-up there? Why a wide shot there? You’ll see that the shots enhance the mood of what is happening. If it’s an intense speech, the camera may move in slowly to an extreme close-up, to add weight to the words. Practice. You’ll learn a whole lot by doing. Shoot films by yourself if you have to. Get friends and family to help. Use your camera phone if you have to. Take a class at a local college. Join local 48 hour film challenges or student films. Be available, and willing to do anything with a smile. If people like you, they’ll use you on their next project. The most important part, remember you are telling a story. The story is paramount. Without the story, you have nothing. So, tell that story the best way you know how.

Dont start as a DP, start from the camera dept as an assistant, 2nd AC learn how the camera works, then after a couple years become a 1st AC and continue to learn the styles and techniques of different cinematographers, then Start operating and by that point you should be okay to start working on indie stuff. No one should start off as a Cinematographer, there are too many lights and tools that a DP uses, that if one without previous camera dept experience will have no idea how to use them. Learn from Gaffers, learn on set.

Ok. I'm going to give you the best advice I can, which perhaps no one will agree with. But that's ok, because it's the best advice I can give and if you take it, great, if not, it's another option. Being a great DP has LITTLE to do with how much you know. I say this for 2 primary reasons: 1) You need a network of people who are going to hire you if you intend in some way to actually make a living doing this. It's who you know, not what you know that will further you really. Now, you can't be a total hack, though there are a few, but you also don't need to know how the camera internally works because of 2. 2) You need your crew. The best DoP in the world can make crap work if they have a crap crew. The same way a crap DoP can make great work with a great crew. You need to work with people who at once are much better than you are, but also aren't after your job. Find the people who know what they're doing, get a relationship of trust going with them, and keep them around (see how this goes with #1?) Having a great gaffer and a great cam-op or ac only serves to better your own work. Once you find these people, there is no one else you'll want to work with. Ideally they should be totally happy in the job they have (e.g. they just want to be a gaffer and aren't gunning for your job). My most successful shoots have been where I've been backed up by a crew much more talented and experienced than I am who are going to give me what I need, but also bring up new and exciting ides. Now, all that said, don't be a hack. Learn what you need to know. A lot of people won't see you have no idea what you're talking about, but those who do won't be too keen or kind about you working in their field. I can't tell you how many people I've known have asked for a gig with me and I've had to say no, because I know they are full of hot air. So how do you learn? Well the prevailing notion is to go into the camera department. But I disagree entirely with this. A camera is simply a box and as a DoP I don't have to worry about the minutia of it's inner workings. That's what I have ACs for. They set it up, they are handling the workflow to get the footage to the editors, and there will be a colorist later on who will know how to work with the footage to get the look I intend to get. Now, you have to know lenses; but there are really only so many focal lengths. Same with filters, and same with how camera x and y differ. But this will come with experience, reading manuals, and doing camera tests (often on your own time). But in truth, a DoP is concerned with the overall visual look of the film, and that is dictated by how the camera moves (grip department) and how the light looks (electric and lighting). What's great is you can get in as a grip trainee and start working. You'll be the one setting up the equipment, learning how to do it safely, learning the lights-- which don't change nearly as much as cameras which get outdated every year or two. And even better, while the camera is rolling you can SEE HOW IT LOOKS! You can look @ the monitor in video village and see the results as htey appear on the screen, knowing that oh, that light there, that's a 5K we put up with 216, or whatever it may be. This is not the experience of a AC who while the camera is actually rolling is concerning themselves with hitting marks and doing their pulls, or with an op who is worrying about the framing (framing i think is kind of intuitive anyway.) Now I have worked as a Grip, a Gaffer, an Op, and an AC, and I can tell you I never learned much as an Op or an AC which really translated over to working as a DoP. However I can tell you that working as a gaffer a long time ago, I now know enough about lighting to be able to look at a location and know what lights we'll need to order to make it work for the look the director wants-- or as a grip, knowing, oh wait, this doorway isn't going to be wide enough for a dolly, I suppose we'll have to look into cranes and steadycams to get the shot the director wants (and go with a crane as it's the most similar to how a dolly moves). And all of this, as well is just 50% of a DP's job (in terms of knowing the grip and electric departments and how to use their lights). The other 50% (or really, 33.333% as 33.3333% is also knowing lenses/filters/post a bit.. but again i don't think you lean on this nearly as much as you do your knowledge of lighting), is how to work a crew. You are a lot more than the person who picks a shot, and as a DoP you often get far too much credit for the look of the film. Truth be told the Production Designer has a hell of a lot more influence than you in the look of a movie, and the director is the one who will be telling you, many times, exactly what lens they want, where, when. But, you are a Director of Photography so you are in charge of 3 departments, Camera, Grip, and Electric. You are their boss, and as such to be a really good DoP you need to learn how to manage your workforce. You need to know how long things will take you and make the most of your limited time; as well as how to properly deal with each and every individual on the set under your guidance. The best ones are the ones you don't need to talk to, but you have better well know how to relay information to your gaffer, your key grip, and your acs about what you need them to do. Again, this will impact how successful you'll be as a DoP a lot more than knowing how many megabits a Alexa Records, or how many bits the analog to digital converter is on a red, or really how to run a transform over to REC from Canon-Log. A Mediocre DoP who can work quickly and make the day (and thereby save production a lot of money) will certainly get more repeat work than a DoP who through ineptitude causes them to go over schedule and over budget. Now a bit about where to start. Let's be honest here for a second. We are plagued by Buy a DPs these days. Those people who go out and buy a dSLR camera or a RED and start shooting. It sucks, and I loose work to them all the damned time because they'll undercut you like mad. I've seen Epic DoPs with a full kit go out for $200/day. If you want to go that way, you will get work, and you will get experience (which is the real teacher anyway) but you won't get much repeat clients, normally, and you may quickly get stuck with a bad reputation. The other option is to work your way up, but this takes a lot of time. You'll learn a lot, and when you do start shooting you won't make many of the rookie mistakes many people do. The downfall being is that you may never, ever, move up. If you're an awesome PA, then that's what people are going to keep on calling you for. Same with an awesome key grip. And without anything to show of your work as a DoP, who the hell is going to give you a chance? So all seems lost unless you happen to spend 50K on an Epic package. But, it's not. It really isn't. What you have to do is make friends, and shoot with those friends. I recommend making friends with other PAs and entry level folks who have bigger dreams... which is to say basically all of them. Find the ones who you think have talent, who you know are smart, and who you get along with the best, and shoot stuff with them. Good stuff. Stuff that get's finished. Use whatever camera is around, and try out you chops. You're all friends, so be honest with each other. Or work with students. Let them foot the bill for college, you don't need that kind of debt, and go out and work on their projects. You may not be DoP on them (though you can be once you start to get some kind of body of work) but you can again, network. Always make people coffee on set when you have a free moment. I still make coffee on set for the directors the actors, and even PAs whenever I have a tick, and I've been working for nearly 20 years. And be yourself with these people with whom you're networking. Then get ready for a long and often rocky road, unless you are both insanely talented and insanely lucky. Also the one last thing, the best advice I have, is don't stab people in the back. This is a lot harder to do than you think, normally, but you gotta do your best to stay diplomatic while also balancing your own well-being and that of your cast and crew. You have to know when to put your foot down and walk form a set, but you also have to know when to tough it out. And god help you if you get an ego which can't be controlled. There are more than enough egos on set anyway. Try to check yours at the door. My 2 cents. good luck.

Also, when you don't understand something, find someone who seems cool, and smart, and ask them. Also track down every single forum, meetup, online group, ect of cinematographers/dops and hop on it. Check your ego and never speak beyond your knowledge and experience, but look, listen, learn, and ask questions.

I think that was more like 24¢ but, all good advice. the more you know your camera, lighting, lenses... the better and the more people you know in high places the better never stop learning

Learn by doing, but also learn by working closely with people who are open to teaching you what you need to know. If your personal network doesn't include a friend who is already a good cinematographer, then you need to watch a LOT of movies, and start following cinematographers whose work you like. IMDB them, go watch their work, then experiment with trying to duplicate their work. These days, a lot of that can get mucked up with the visual effect department, and certainly color technicians have a big influence on the look. But what's in frame, what's in focus, and seeing what's lit and what's not lit can do a lot to educate you. If you try a shoot with the intent to duplicate a look that you saw from a film and it doesn't end up looking the same, you don't give up, you keep trying. You've just figured out one way that doesn't work, congratulations! If you do have someone already experienced as a cinematographer, this process can be much easier if you can tag along on a shoot, observe and listen closely, and most of all be the perfect blend of helpful while staying out of the way. This is what good PA's do, it's what good 2AC's do, and it's what good 1AC's do in order to move up.

don't know if anyone's mentioned it but, the 10 minute film school videos on youtube are priceless - and free

"That's a Union mindset that is quickly being disproven" it's not a union mindset. it's a mindset that says it's good to know the whole process. you will be a better cinematographer if you understand how the whole thing comes together. it's not mandatory, but it doesn't hurt. now, as far as spending years in each position, that's a bit much. you can be a boom op on a 48 hour challenge once, and then move on to the next position. being a 2nd camera assistant to a seasoned cinematographer is invaluable. you will learn a ton. it seems silly to skip this step and think you're going to be better than someone who took the time to do that. the best directors have been actors, cinematographers, and editors. doing those things will help you tremendously, if you want to be a director. and it certainly won't hurt if you want to be a cinematographer. once you've edited footage, you'll see why getting the same shot from different angles is important. you'll also see why getting 40 hours of footage for a scene is a waste of time. Samuel says, "Now what you need to do is know about lens focal lengths. Depth of field. Angle of view, Aperture, Chromatic Aberation, Lens flare and what causes it, and common lens mounts. Many will disagree but you actually need to know sensor size and why depth of field changes because of the sensor size. You need to know why a lens works. Not just play with a lens and know how it looks. A cinematographer can create a look with speed from their scientific knowledge of lenses. Compression, expansion, normal lenses, Depth of field all changes with sensor or film size, angle of view, and distance to subject for example. It does not change with focal length as most people believe. Physics dictates otherwise and simple understanding of the process can help you figure out what you need to do faster." most of that is true but, this is kind of twisting what people have told you. depth of field IS affected by the focal length of a lens. a wide angle will give you a wider depth of field. a telephoto will certainly give you a shorter depth of field. distance from subject to lens is also a factor. size of chip is also a factor. f-stop is also a factor. you can't say that it is only determined by the size of the chip. otherwise, people would have to change the chip to a different size to change their depth of field. you need to know ALL of the factors. one of the reasons for taking a photography class is that it will teach you composition. I didn't mention everything you will learn in a photography class. what I did mention is why taking a class that used film would make a difference. you will learn the inner workings of a camera. you'll learn when and why to use a long or short exposure, or when or why to open the lens, or close it down. you'll learn about the correlation between f-stops and shutter speeds... among many other things. when he mentions the psychology of the shot, we're back to the emotion of a close-up or a wide angle, which I mentioned earlier. you're telling a story, and you need to tell it the best way possible. if you want the audience to feel the loneliness that the character is feeling, you may want a wide shot of the person in a desolate place. Ron Howard showed this extremely well in Apollo 13 when he pulled back from a close-up inside the cockpit to a wide shot of the capsule floating in space. in contrast, a slow push, or close-up during an important speech intensifies the emotion. the rest of his advice is sound. Samuel, you come off as condescending. there are many ways to learn, there are many things to learn. we all learn from each other, and we never stop learning. I learn every time I'm on set and I still watch youtube videos. try to add without making it sound like everyone else is stupid.

are you serious? you want to get that technical? when you use a wide angle lens, it APPEARS to have wider depth of field. there. feel better? we use this technique ALL THE TIME IN THE REAL WORLD. you can argue phyiscs all you want. it won't change my shots. but, it will confuse the hell out of newbies. we're trying to teach what we see, not confuse the hell out of people. once they see what's happening, we can explain it better. but, telling them it doesn't make a difference is only going to confuse them when they see it make a difference. you don't need a PhD in lenses to make your shots work. you need to START somewhere. we're talking about inexperienced beginners here. not someone who knows everything except how lenses work. by the time he gets to be a DP, he'll understand that. but geez, how crazy is it to confuse the person before he even begins? you can call it DP 101, but he's not a DP. he's a beginner. he's not even a cinematographer yet. not even a camera operator yet.

he has me beat by a mile? have you seen my work?

I do lighting, sound, shoot and edit all the time. I produce a TV show by myself. one that is aired on TV. I shoot and edit short films by myself. I do understand that you need to know the formulas for depth of field, exposure, and so on, but, I was thinking of beginners, not advanced classes. I had not looked at Ty's work, just at the question. so, in that case, it was an assumption, and I presumed he was a beginner. I was wrong. he has some experience. he could use some more advanced info. I still don't get where you get off saying he's got me beat by a mile. that's just weird. the thing is, you came off making it sound like everything anyone else said before your comment was just plain stupid, and you continue in that vein. you could add to the conversation without putting others down but, you don't seem to have any interest in doing that. I made a few points about what you said and said you don't have to attack me. you took that as an attack. that doesn't really make sense and again, you said DP 101 - I was thinking we're talking to a beginner, not a DP. so, it's a simple misunderstanding there. the Director of Photography should know far more than a camera operator. that's a given. even a good 1st AC should know quite a bit. all of my suggestions were intended for someone who was starting from scratch. you don't need a photography class if you're already running a video camera. you do need to understand composition. we probably agree on quite a bit, but what you did was call me, and anyone else who commented before you, stupid for making these suggestions. I believe Ty could speak for himself if he thinks we're talking below his skill level. or he can make his own decisions on what suggestions to implement, and which ones to ignore. for you to come on and tell us we're all stupid is a personal attack. to ask you to not do that is not a personal attack. to tell someone their work is inferior is a personal attack. and it's just plain stupid when you haven't seen the person's work. so, please don't do that

Ty, ignoring our petty arguments, I'd say you can find lots of good information from all the suggestions we've given. you know which ones are pertinent and which ones aren't. seeing that you are experienced with a camera, I'd say it's good to learn all you can about lenses. and do watch the "10 minute film school" videos on youtube. they're killer and presented by real pros, like director Robert Rodriguez

The Robert Rodriguez 10 Minute Film School - Part 1 of 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UOa7tkByrw The Robert Rodriguez 10 Minute Film School - Part 2 of 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLxqNwc1oYU

you'll notice in part 2, Robert says he didn't have to focus because he was using a wide angle lens. so, yes, it's very good to know everything you can about lenses. but, realize that a wide angle will make everything appear in focus so you can get away with not being in critical focus.

Technically, for those interested, what is really a major factor in depth of field is circle of confusion... quite aptly named if you ask me. Look, I know a good deal of the science behind optics (i build lenses from time to time for fxs). I also know about the physics behind lighting. I know all of these scientific things. But, truthfully, I don't think any of that really makes too much of a lick of difference when you're actually shooting. (also don't get me started on cinematographer as a title...) What does matter is having the ability, perhaps innate, perhaps borne out of experience, to transform words into images which move. I can't ever think of a moment when I have sat down and worried about the chromatic aboration of a lens when I'm working out with a director or actor the best way we can cover a scene. And in truth, quite a few DoPs, many IATSE, a few ASC, whom I have met not only do not know any of the science behind what they do, they also don't give a rats ass and shoot far better than I probably ever will, or any of us on here for that matter. Why? Because there is a point in which all this science has to be transformed into something aesthetic-- something which in some way or another causes an emotional reaction in the audience (or doesn't cause, for that matter). Now, whether or not people want to approach this formulaic, organic, or gut that's on them. Methodology is personal. Results are what count. Also; don't forget, at the end of the day, you are responsible for a hell of a lot more than just how things look and feel. You have to know how to time-manage, and how to think on your feet because if there is one truth to film is that change is inevitable on the day.

absolutely. the whole thing boils down to, did I keep the audience interested? it is more about FEELING than science. you can follow a recipe to the letter, or you can understand cooking and know what to change to make it better suit your taste. you don't have to be a chemist to be a good baker. what I know is, people like to work with me, and they like my work. I love what I do and I'm happy with the results. I'm always learning, and improving. I do know some of the science but, I'm more interested in the creative side than the technical side. whether you're technical or creative, you need to produce something that people are interested in watching. to be a true DP, you'll have to be a little bit (or maybe a lot) of both.

Also I can't harp on enough, at least in the narrative world, how important lighting is. Probably more so than lens selection which at the end of the day isn't up nearly as much to the DoP as we'd often like (nothing like being told by a director to put a 14mm on because it looks cool, but hey, I work for them in the end). 'Course, even lighting isn't really fully under DoP control-- such as, it's too dark!

there are three main components to a movie. light, sound and video. all three are important. if one of them is wrong, the audience will notice. if it's done right, the audience won't notice. if it's phenomenal, the audience will notice.

dude, you are way too technical and read way too much into what I'm saying. we're agreeing for the most part and you keep coming back with something more. when I said a formula, I wasn't talking about formulaic shooting. I was talking about a mathematical formula for figuring out your depth of field, or the fall off of light, or how to keep that gun the same size... if you watched the videos I recommended, you'd see that I am not a stickler for formulaic shots. I am more of a shoot from the hip type shooter at many shoots, because I show up not knowing what we're going to shoot. I get hired a lot by people who give me no warning. sometimes, I don't know if it's going to be a film, a commercial, or a monologue. I have no idea til I show up. I haven't seen a script or even know what type of location we'll be shooting in. I don't know if we'll need studio lights, an on camera light, or no lights. so, I have to be extremely flexible. I have to decide on the spot if I'm going hand-held, tripod, or something in between. other times, there's a script, and I've seen it, and there's an experienced director, and rarely, even story boards. but, either way, I have to be flexible and get the vision of the director. that's what a good DP does, brings the director's vision to the screen. the only formula I know for that is, listen, and know how to do what the director asks. that would mean having creative vision, and some technical skills. you are absolutely correct about a DP knowing science and art. that's just exactly what I said.

I don't feel stupid. you didn't just say I was stupid. you inferred that everyone who commented before you was stupid. it was your tone. every suggestion we had given came under scrutiny. like we had no clue. and you still act like you know more than God. it's your tone. you actually listed what we said and said it wasn't important. that is as direct as it can get. so, don't tell me you didn't say we were stupid. I've already said that my suggestions were for a beginner. like I said, I just looked at the question and made an assumption. that was my bad. I should have looked at Ty's work and seen where he was. I didn't even look to see if he had work. many of the people who ask me questions like that have never been to film school, and never shot anything. they are asking how to get started. so, that was my mistake. I've already owned up to that.

I like constructive criticism, but all you said was "he's miles ahead of you". that is just a putdown. it tells me basically nothing. Ty, I wasn't comparing our work. if you want to look at my work and give me some feedback, that would be cool. I always like feedback. the ten minute film school is an overview, true. but, it's also EXCELLENT for any DP. there are insights for any filmmaker, no matter what position. I only posted two segments, and they were both by Robert Rodriguez. there are others, by other people, with lots of different information. by definition, a ten minute school is going to be an overview. unless it's just in super fast forward, in which case, it's pretty useless. it's been good talking to you, but I think we've gotten off course here. not gonna argue anymore.

and, no matter what you say, you can be too technical. that's a fact. now, as to working on well planned out shoots only, that's great. but, that's you. being able to shoot from the hip is a good thing. being tied to your light meter is sad, if you ask me.

Listen to Adrian. His experiences and mine have been much the same.

It's probably because we're both east-coasters ;) Oh how I miss the "right side"

I think it might be appropriate to send a private message, because this is getting ridiculous, bickering on someone else's thread. but, I'd rather keep it public because you seem to arguing for the sake of arguing. I think it's good to have witnesses again, you twist words. I never said FEEL stupid. never I said, you talked down to us, like we were stupid and you continue to do so I know what a DP is and don't need you to explain. again, you sounding like you're smarter than everyone else. we all need it explained and you're the one to do it. A DP uses a light meter, a tape measure and other tools. again, making yourself sound smart, you talk down to me and say nothing. even if Ty's work is monumentally better than mine, you used that to take a poke at me. there was no reason to say it other than to tear me down. building yourself up by tearing others down usually backfires. and we did say the exact same thing before. I repeated what you said and what I said. it was the exact same thing. you only seem to hear one side. and you never clarified what was said that was so different. only, again, putting me down without really saying anything. "it was too different" doesn't really tell us where I was wrong. it's so easy to give constructive criticism, but you have avoided that at all costs. now, it seems, all you want to do is put me down. you and I are not the only ones reading this. others can read this too. they can see that what I said is true and that I tried a couple times to cool things down, but you refuse. I explained that had made a mistake. you don't take that into account you have a very low view of me and that is all you see

sorry Ty

Adrian - come visit! Or I will, if it ever slows down :)

Sounds like a plan to me. I may be out back east this Sept/Oct, depending on if funding comes together for a pet project.

Cool!