Screenwriting : As a screenwriter, how often do you ask yourself, "How the hell did this movie get made?" by Phillip E. Hardy, "The Real Deal"

Betas. Every character talks like a 12-year-old white girl's Twitter feed. I personally know Jon Daly (I was on his podcast some times), and he's actually kind of funny (rarely, but I'VE SEENT IT!). But he deserves no better. :D

Seriously, even with Ed Begley, Jr., it's just a waste of time.

the answer is real simple: the folks who made movies are in the business of making movies, good and bad. No such thing as a perfect script. Set deadline schedule, write, shoot, edit, release. Move on to next project.

A dude like Brad Pitt is a human corporation; he acts and produces hits like Moonlight and duds like War Machine. He knows more about the film business than everybody on forums.

I think aspiring Writers gotta find their own group of friends, work together on shit projects to pay bills & learn craft, and hopefully one project win awards and stroke egos.

Dan M: I love you but you have a myopic attitude when it comes to treating film making strictly as a business. My question is not an attack on the god damn film business, which F*%ks up frequently, just like any other commercial endeavor. I'm talking about how you feel as a writer, aspiring or otherwise. I'm sure writers like William Goldman and David O' Russell have asked the same question I'm asking. Good writing and filmmaking is also an art from. And hopefully an art from that makes the creator and the investor some money.

Im sure Russell & Goldman worked on dud projects we dont know about. Everybody works on duds, hits, and so-so projects. The Studios keep throwing big checks at Johnny Depp, pray he delivers a winner. After 3-4 shit movies, Johnny has a winner, Pirates 5

Sorry, I really don't have any recent films to share simply because I don't waste my time watching a film or series that I have no interest in watching. I just don't have the luxury of available time. But again, why consider what you are watching solely in terms of the writing? A whole team of decision makers influence and impose upon that shooting script and control the final product. Nonetheless, the answer to your question is easy. How the hell did this get funded and made?—connections and money, baby. ;) Personally, I don't waste mental energy thinking about other people's personal choices. I'm too tired the way it is... Lol! To me it's simple: If you don't like it, then don't watch it. ;)

To add, personally speaking, it does not affect how I feel as a writer, not at all. That is but one script, or a project, or a production. I have mine. Film is an art form. Absolutely. But with art there are infinite possibilities and differences of expression. And there's a wide variance of subjective opinion as well. ;)

look at the shitty film and tv projects here on stage 32 seeking producers, agents, buyers, crowd funding. This stuff if you want to call it "art" is subjective. Everybody thinks their own shit doesn't stink. Same thought process at studio level with high salaried Executives. Work on a bunch of ideas, hope 1 idea goes big.

Dan M:

1) Pirates is a great francise, with interesting characters, a great core of actors including Depp and Rush, and typically smart writing with enough off-the-wall stuff to keep it fresh.

2) Absolutely, everyone thinks their shyte smells like roses, including me. But being lucky enough to get one of your scripts made into a film is not the only qualifier for good writing.

Beth: Thank god there are writers that think as you do. Art should, and always be, in the eye of the beholder.

Art and commerce: It's unfortunate that the two do not travel in tandem. Occasionally they do cross and in the film world and the result is a spectacular film. I'm grateful when it happens but I'm disappointed that overall the bar has been lowered so low. I sadly have to agree with Dan M when I see all the trolling here on Stage 32.

Art actually has specific rules that generally must be met -- not unlike screenwriting, or writing in general, you must know them before you break them. And I had no idea Daly was in Betas until I saw him pop-up -- in fact, I had to wait for the second episode to check the credits and be sure!

I don't think less of anyone for being involved in a bad project, or (better yet) one that fails to impress me as a viewer. I may think less of a castmember or crewmember after seeing they have been involved in a number of them, though. And poor showings draw my attention to what makes them suck; good projects engage me and, with my disbelief suspended, take me along for the ride.

Besides, I literally could not think less of Jon Daly. ;)

*blew

I believe collaboration can be good and bad. A script starts out good, enough to get interest. A director (they can afford or know) wants a rewrite. The director has always wanted to try a particular thing here's he chance. The story doesn't quiet work now, but it has the director's sign off. Now a producer sees he knows how to save it..... we can all see how this ends.

It's always been a team effort, let's not shine shoes of Writers.

Research Moonlight. It was the Producer who recommended Barry Jenkins to collaborate with the playwright. Somebody paid/invested 3 years for Jenkins to write the script, and the 3 key people (Jenkins, Producer, Cinematographer) have been working together since college.

I just signed an option agreement on a script which states that the purchaser has rights to change/rewrite as they please. It's not all about the writer. Even the work for hire contract I have on another script, once they have exhausted the rewrites I have signed on to do, may take the "final product" and the director may let the actors improvise or he may change other things. My script is like a blueprint for a house. The owner may decide to knock down a wall or change the size/location of the windows. I'll warn them if it's a retaining wall, but other than that, they can do what they want and paint it how they want. It's all theirs!

Well, many of us are writers and this is a screenwriting forum, so we probably focus on that aspect more than we should when discussing these things, but it's what we notice. A great actor can make bad dialogue sound great, or great dialogue sound awful -- same with directors, etc.

It goes without saying that it's a collaboration, but writing the script is not -- most of you who argue this point are the very ones who argue that screenwriters should never, under any circumstance, write anything other than straight dialogue. You can't have it both ways. The script (almost always) sets everything else in motion, despite later changes, so you have to wonder how some of these things get sold in the first place.

Usually it's politics, connections, marketplace, or the screenwriter sells something else that proves successful then there's a buying frenzy.

Here's another one: American Housewife. Without Diedrich Bader and Kenny Powers' girlfriend being attached, that show would be ABCFamily also-ran. I know why it got made (not just the attachments -- it's 100% safe, and guaranteed not to offend anyone), but I also know there are hundreds of better shows that should have gotten that greenlight.

Me. And I would absolutely not produce a movie with my own money. First you'd have to pay me what I'm worth, so...

Crap work is crap work, regardless if sold by a pretty face. And War Machine is an unwatchable turd. Congrats to the producers.

Wow, okay? Sorry, Phillip, but Plan B has also produced some incredible and award winning work (12 Years a Slave, Moonlight). Every production company is going to have hits and misses, pretty face or not. I'm looking forward to the Netflix and Plan B production of the sci-fi film "Okja,” directed by Bong Joon-ho. ;)

Brad Pitt and company have done a lot to support auteur-driven work. Plan B provides a crucial foundation for small films to exist—films like "The Lost City of Z." Plan B supported Ava DuVernay’s “Selma" too. So Plan B is doing some great stuff; the type of films I believe most members on this site dream and hope to make someday. ;)

Beth: Am I not being clear with what I'm saying? How did you interpret me criticizing War Machine, as being critical of Plan B, as an entire production entity? Let me abundantly clear. I think War Machine is poorly crafted; and I don't think everything that is professionally produced, with large sums of cash, has to automatically be defended as quality work. Dan M contends that aspiring writers can't render legitimate opinions about filmmakers with track records and pretty faces. This is the entire nature of our disagreement.

After nearly 3700 user ratings on rotten tomatoes, War Machine is scoring an average of 39 percent. 55 critics are scoring it at a whopping 55 percent. Draw your own conclusions.

There is a great podcast that asks this question every week http://www.earwolf.com/show/how-did-this-get-made/

And bully for Brad Pitt, Plan B and their good work. That whole point is irrelevant to whether or not War Machine is a good film. And, If I'm lucky enough to be involved in making a prestige project, I aim to deliver some good writing. So pardon me if I don't bow and kiss their rings.

Phillip, how are you NOT criticizing the producer(s) of "War Machine" by slamming it? Lol! You are entitled to your own opinion, of course, but it seems rather narrow minded to me. Both you and Dan M have valid points. The funny thing is... none of our opinions have any bearing whatsoever. This production company will continue to make work as they see fit. Deliver what you wish, more power to you. I do wish you the best. :)

I wish Brad would make Oceans 14, Seven 2, Fight Club 2. Stop wasting his talent on risky projects like Money Ball, War Machine! Blah! :) He's an Artist, wants to reinvent. Heck, Madonna doesn't sing "Like a Virgin" anymore. I miss Angelina Jolie and the kids :)

Beth:

Gee, thanks for allowing me to be entitled to my own opinion. Again, how am I slamming the producers by saying they made a bad film? Apparently, us lowly S32 "aspiring writers" are not entitled to render strong opinions about the art of filmmaking. By saying none of our opinions have any bearing, exactly supports my point about the philosophy (my learned colleague) Dan M is espousing, which is that since haven't we haven't made films, our lack of experience equates to inferior talent. And if you're okay with that, God bless! And quite frankly, unless Plan B hires me to write for them, I don't give a rat's ass what "they see fit" to do. And I won't bleat the praises of someone strictly based on their successes. I posted this to create debate and discussion; and my opinion is as valid as anyone else's.

And I'll do you one better!

Beth Fox Heisinger, I love you and wish you the greatest success with all your earthly endeavors. You are beautiful, outspoken and a halfway decent moderator.

Great article! Phil, I believe that's why we continue writing because we believe we can write something better. It's when the kids with the crayons get a hold of the script that really "Musses it up." Probably from a reading perspective. I'll check out the script as a reading example. Stay hot and deliver the goods folks! Much Love, Rayond J.Negron.

MaXxxy:

Now that's something I agree with you on!

Raymond: thanks my friend.

Gee, thanks, Phillip (eye roll). Lol ;) And that was not what I was doing/saying. But whatever, I give up. Gotta a script to work on. Cheers. :)

Beth:

Oh, so now it's not worth the time to argue with me? Batting my eyelashes

What kind of script are you working on? Genre? Teleplay?

HAHAHA @ "Seven 2." :D

The problem with Moneyball was the ending -- they left-out something, but I've no idea what.

SPOILERS

I get that he wanted to remain close to his family, but with that kind of money, it's a moot point; he could have bought a private jet and airfields in both locales. He could have built Elon Musk's magrail between the towns. The character came across not as a Dedicated Coach With A Purpose, but as someone who couldn't come to terms with the end of his marriage or make decisions.

There was no story there. Had he turned down the money for a valid reason, there would have been a story. As it was, you followed this dude meandering around for nearly three hours before settling into nothing happening for the rest of his life.

Shit, I do that all day.

Wouldn't Seven Two actually be Fourteen?

Phillip: I'm re-working a thriller, working on another, and outlining/beginning two others. ;)

Beth:

Prolific!

Dan M so no one along the way from Crap script to Crap movie had the good sense to say something? Then it is a collaboration it is blind faith to the writer's vision. We can't have it both ways. I'd blame the director, they want the credit they wear the blame.

Sorry to answer late. Yes Dan G. The producer owns the rights. When I am working with johnny Martin he'll often give me the job of rewrites, but otherwise, when it's sold, I'm done.

Great talent and production companies can make bad product. There's stuff I've written that I hope never gets seen -- even stuff I've registered (in fact, some I registered for specific reasons, never intending to publish). I think Buffy is one of the greatest things in the world, but I have been wholly unimpressed with almost everything he's done since (with the singular exception of Cabin in the Woods, which is brilliant). And the movie itself ain't much.

I think JJ Abrams is incredibly overrated but I like a lot of his stuff -- same with Seth Rogen's stuff (he isn't overrated, the things he's in usually are). That isn't their fault. Hollywood is 80% hype anymore -- at the very least -- and there's just no way most product can live-up to its hype. You can't blame the filmmakers for that. That's one of the biggest reasons I keep as low a profile as possible -- I'd rather the work speak for itself.

Not that I am not awesome, because I am. I am a gem.

Working with others is fantastic -- if for no other reason than that otherwise, everything you do is going to seem very similar eventually -- but, the more people that get involved, the more things are likely to go wrong. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians. Like I said before, The Social Network would not have been that good had Fincher not directed. He gave Sorkin's talking heads a sense of urgency that saved it from being a lifeless, Movie-of-the-Week, boardroom opera.

You have to learn to see things critically, even good work. As much as I love Woody Allen's stageplays, a lot of his films are unbearably self-indulgent. To say he made a "trilogy" or "series" is disingenuous; he got stuck in a navel-gazing rut, and worked through his bad relationships on film. There's nothing wrong with it, but he's better than that -- and, once he got out of those relationships, his work got better. Frank Miller is a literal genius, but the majority of his writing over the last decade has been straight-up junk (I haven't read DKIII yet -- have it, but haven't read it). I love Frank, but there it is.

I'll say this for Brad Pitt: He learned to act. I can't think of him without thinking of Juliette Lewis -- who is a really good actress -- and, even though I like some of the stuff he's been in (and him in that work), he's no Juliette Lewis. But his acting is really decent these days, and I recall that more than anything about Moneyball. That's not being mean to anyone involved by any stretch of the imagination; that's just an honest assessment as a viewer and "creative" (I hate that word).

Learning to see others' work critically is vital. It's easier because you aren't personally invested and, once you develop those muscles, you can apply those skills to your own work. That's one of the reasons I watch so many bad movies: You learn 10x more from bad films than good ones.

I actually talk to some of these people, and they really do listen. If you're a good critic, they actually want to hear your opinion -- even if it's less than pleasant. Unless they're an executive.

There are WGA rules as to how the writers credit is earned.

All the time...

Sausage Party. It's VERY rare I don't watch a film all the way through, as I have had experiences where a film has redeemed itself, but I turned this off half-way through. I didn't laugh once. I'm told that the last twenty minutes are very funny, but I can't even bring myself to watch that!

Bad Neighbors, turned off that garbage after 15 minutes. I can't believe they made a sequel.

lol Sausage Party was a passion project for Seth Rogen. I think it was a 10-year journey before he found a backer (Megan Ellison).

MaxXxy:

You're right. I heard Seth on Howard Stern and he said he had a hell of a time get funding for Sausage Party. When it's hard for someone like Seth to get funding, you know it's really an uphill (more of a mountain) battle for an unknown writer to sell a spec screenplay.

Hardy

Yep. Seth worked on other movies while waiting and waiting. You're on the right track. Keep outputting scripts. One day somebody will say, "How the hell did Hardy get his movie made?" :)

MaxXxy:

Thanks for the kind words and let me publicly thank you for your efforts on my behalf this year. Your friendship via S32 has been a blessing to me. And your insights and counsel are a blessing to this community.

Trying and trying and trying again to get a script to producers and then something like "CHiP's" or even "50 Shades Darker" get so much backing? A ton of media and a ton of trash. Of course 'everyone's' script is better than a badly made movie, but it is just so frustrating!

I've stopped trying to write a great script. I am now listening for how to sell yourself to the Executives and let the talent shine later. These people who are getting this SHIT made are great sales people. That is at the heart of the mystery we are trying to unravel.

Paterson. Still scratching my head on that one.

I don't even have to ask anymore, "How did that get made?" I could single out specific turkeys, but would rather not name names. Some of those filmmakers do the Happy Writer pitch sessions here. With a little IMDB research it's pretty easy to figure out where their careers are at.

Pitch to spouses even if you don't have a finished screenplay. It's good practice.

To get back to your question, Philip E. " Superman vs Batman " or vice versa , I asked myself the same question. Just my humble opinion, as I'm no pro. BTW, BETH, did you ever finished that psychological thriller?? Sorry I've been away, but I'm really busy writing, rewriting, finally working with an editor and finishing a script, which took me back to one of the most painful for most in the theatre and artistic community, AIDS in the mid '80s. Keep writing everyone. #fearlessWriter.

I'm going to be controversial because I know everyone love 13 Reasons Why, but man, I thought it was awful. I was told over and over by multiple people how amazing it was and I honestly thought about cutting those people out of my life after sitting through 13 hours of that garbage. The writing, especially the dialogue was so cheesy and ridiculous. The main character was a bitch, which normally wouldn't bother me because I'm all for unlikeable characters. But don't ask me to give a shit that someone kills themselves when that character is an asshole. And by the way most of her "reasons" were stupid. I said most. I get that there was like two or three big ones. Honestly I felt more of the other characters had more reasons to be suicidal than Hannah. And I'm not just some bitter adult who doesn't relate to teen drama anymore, I still randomly watch Freaks and Geeks or My so called life whenever they're on. But I just really felt crazy after watching that and being the only one on the planet who hated it. I don't understand why people like or how it got made and it makes me nuts.

Netflix takes huge risks, from "13 Reasons Why" to paying $60mil for distribution rights for "War Machine." People forget Netflix was broke 8 years ago; their public trade stocks were under $1 a share and the CEO bet the entire business on "House of Cards"; became a financial & awards success and Netflix became a Hollywood player.

A bigger annoyance for me is when a film has such great potential but then falls short, often due to boring writing. I can't think right now of a current example but I often refer to "Sweet Home Alabama". Obviously not a movie made to win awards but it had a really good cast and a likable plot that could have been a classic romantic comedy...but... it just had so much overly cliched and boring scenes written. Such a waste of talent and time. A C- movie that could have been so much more.

That's actually a great example, Travis! I agree, too -- I almost want to dig-up that script to see the differences.

Theresa:

Word!

I once got a letter from a "producing analyst" who was more critical of my pitch and never read the script, not one line. Not one word of criticism over the logline or the synopsis, but critical of my use of phrasing, my idea for star branding and a several things not even related to the script. I understand screening, but in a pitch at least look at the first few lines. I am not a salesperson, I am not some kiss-ass agent. I have a story to sell. If I could sell myself, I wouldn't be a writer, I'd be a litigation attorney or a producer.

I went all the way to Australia to research the book that brought the screenplay to life, and it has garnered small acclaim. I think I would've had more success sitting on the toilet taking a dump and writing a story on my I-Phone where Seth Rogan masturbates an elephant in a grocery store for two hours and that crapola would sell without a blink, but bring up production values of a panoramic love story set all over the jungles and cities on Australia and producers would rather take the big loss high budget film than the low budget love story. IMHO.

At least the elephant was happy.

I actually received something like this very recently, but I was grateful for the advice for the exact reason you said: I'm not a salesman, either; I'm a writer. Plus, I have no idea how to sell something obvious. If I said, "Starring Seth Rogen," No one would say, "But what makes him 'funny?' What does he do that's funny?" and that kind of thing. For horror, or mystery, or something, I can see that kind of question; for comedy, that's just offensive.

I certainly don't want to be a jerk, but it's kind of like, "Well the jokes make it funny. And I write the jokes, so... that's what makes the jokes funny... what do you think we're doing here?" I know that sounds awful, but it's really offensive to pass on a script because you can't figure out what makes it funny from a pitch. OTOH, as I said, it's fantastic that anyone took the time to give me pointers on crafting a better sales pitch. That's writing, too -- writing ad copy, but it's still writing.

I've gotten, "The pitch was funny, but..." a few times. It's like... well, isn't that the point? Are you expecting me to literally give you the setups, punchlines, and callbacks for a 30+-page script in a two-page pitch -- then why am I writing the script? Do you want the throwaways, too?

How the hell would you know if it is funny, or I can write jokes, without reading the script? And, if the pitch is funny, why would you question whether or not the script would be? But, honestly, they're just saying it's not for them -- which is great, because it wouldn't be a good fit, and they took the time to critique the pitch, so it's not bad. And it's okay to vent about with other screenwriters in a screenwriting forum.

If I just said, "Melissa McCarthy's attached," I could send in a grocery list. Then focus my time on getting her attached. It doesn't matter what they say, nor any "advice;" it's pretty myopic in scope.

I wouldn't want Rogen, Ferrell, McCarthy, Kevin Hart, nor any of those people, anywhere near anything I write! It immediately becomes their project, and it's all about catering to them -- not the product. Unless they're going to up my pay substantially, I don't write vanity vehicles on spec. Who would buy them?

MaxXxy: I've almost finished House of Cards season four. Those Underwoods are a rough couple. I guess you can't fight city hall after all. But all the shows Netflix has makes them worth the price of admission. They also have a lot of decent B and C movies.

Netflix is also about the only streaming service you can get to work with a bad Internet connection! Prime has some great also-rans, too.

I like it that now Netflix gives you a heads up when they're removing a show. A while back, I used to get halfway into a series, and then it was taken off before I finished it. Now, at least I can binge watch if I need to see how some shows end. lol

Hardy

I worked post-production on Season 1 of House of Cards. Crazy deadline schedule. First show to release all episodes at once. 10-14-hrs day & night. That's one reason why filmmakers can't tell if their crap is good or not-- I saw every frame of every episode about 20x. Go blind.

MaxXxy: my favorite frame in season one is of Kate Mara's bum.

That's some hard work right there Dan! I've pulled hours like that before (not in film, but in my current field). Not easy. Good job on making it without pulling your hair out! :)