Screenwriting : Learning from Bad Writing by Lyndon Booth

Yes practically everything that is made from 2018-2020 and is available to watch on Netflix.

Also up to 2022. There is still hope for the rest of us.

So... what did you learn from that?

Simon Iliopoulos So anything before 2018 on Netflix is OK? haha

I was hoping for specific examples!

One learns from one's mistakes....success is only some good time...

Lyndon Booth the day-player who is never seen again, and yet another "industry picture" lol if yer gonna do it do it right.

yes it's astonishing, when we hear for years all about the basics such as "show don't tell" and simply creating story pace, compelling dynamics and interest on screen,

tough to imagine the lack of comprehension by the writer, when you see scenes that seem as though they were written by a store-window mannequin.

And so it falls to the rest of us yet again to go out and conquer the world and erase this trivial cacabooti from our consciousness with something billions of orders of magnitude better in every way.

Thanks for such a crispy reminder!

I try not to criticise and I try not to punch down. It can look kinda ugly and it's a common trait I see in new creatives.

As Dan MaxXx rightly points out, there's a whole team involved, all of whom I like to think are trying their best and bringing their A-game. This brings in another factor too; you should never blame the writing unless you know for a fact it was in the script. So much can change between the script and the screen - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. I've had so many important lines/beats changed and dropped for a multitude of reasons.

Something I do like to do is study what highly respected filmmakers prove they can get away with. Christopher & Jonathan Nolan are one of my favourites for this; school buses driving out of bank walls and blending into traffic, perfect doppelgängers of characters available at the drop of a hat, people appearing out of nowhere in rooms with only one way in and out. They show how little plausibility can matter when people are being entertained.

Reflexive vicarious excuses and mansplaining are probably a well-entrenched foundation of 20th-century culture,

maybe those types of philosophy account for a great deal of subpar material comprising the canon out there on the buffet table, I appreciate the dialectic.

I think what's really ugly is poorly-executed cinema that should still be in the cutting room. And sure that can be fixed, but not in the middle of a premiere, unless we're doing some "behind the music" stuff?

NB I just re-watched Adam Sandler in The Water Boy so maybe you think I'm lowbrow.

Kiril Maksimoski do you not think mistakes should be sequestered in pre-production, not on the bloody mylar screen?

I feel the same way about people claiming all modern (or all Hollywood) movies are subpar. It's a great way to put people off working with you.

As ever, those who think they can do a better job are welcome to step up and demonstrate it.

There's this quote I love from Brene Brown.

"A lot of cheap seats in the arena are filled with people who never venture onto the floor. They just hurl mean-spirited criticisms and put-downs from a safe distance. The problem is, when we stop caring what people think and stop feeling hurt by cruelty, we lose our ability to connect. But when we’re defined by what people think, we lose the courage to be vulnerable. Therefore, we need to be selective about the feedback we let into our lives. For me, if you’re not in the arena getting your ass kicked, I’m not interested in your feedback."

With well honed craft skills and a strong artist voice, every writer should be able to watch a movie and know how they'd do things differently. Not necessarily better. Differently. Plus, those genuinely learning from objectively bad content are showing how low the bar is for themselves.

Anyone with production experience will know full well there's plenty that can take a script off course after pre-production.

Daniel it's ok to have mistakes...there's no film without it...issue is when whole movie is a mistake, usually creator(s) don't see that...now, I understand Dan's praise for the hustle and the hard work, but I as the audience should have a final say, don't I? If not, then why ure selling it to me to see...do it for yourself, family friends...

A man becomes a critic when he cannot be an artist, the same way that a man becomes an informer when he cannot be a soldier. Mike Shiner - Birdman ( and yes, I've definitely played the role of the Informer )

Best piece of advice I was given very early in my writing career was this: be ready and willing to kill your baby. I didn't understand what it meant at the time until I let others read early drafts of projects. Hearing the voices and the dialogue significantly impacted my perspective.

Bad writing is often the result of the ego-feeding tendency to believe every word is a Shakespearean turn of a phrase.

I still don't like it when I have to cut words, sentences, and sometimes paragraphs and pages, but it's gotten easier with time.

C.J. - I think of it as the polliwog puddle.

It seems we're veering dangerously close to "you can't criticise a movie unless you've already made successful million-dollar movies!" "You can't criticise a book if you haven't written a novel!" You can't criticise a performance if you're not an actor!" Worthless.

This was one specific criticism I picked up on in the writing, and someone starts saying don't be mean, the lighting crew are doing their best! Haha

Anyway, like Ronald says, "killing your babies" or straight up deleting your hard work usually leads to better results

No, at least have the gumption to own your own comments.

"My most recent example was attending the premiere of an incredibly bad no-budget movie. The type of movie that’s so bad you instinctively start hitting those around you as a coping mechanism."

You don't get to roll over, show your tummy, and claim you've made one criticism and aren't being mean after saying something like that. You attacked an entire team's work during their big moment from both the comfort of the back row and then from behind your keyboard.

That's not cool and, while you'll make a lot of friends on the internet doing so, it's not fair and will put people off working with you.

Some films just aren't very good. I don't know what to tell you. Sorry for being "mean" to an anonymous team of people! I'll just contact every film reviewer telling them to lay off

What is on the page does not always end up on the screen. Once a script is sold, it's in the hands of the creators.

I agree with @Ronald... I had to kill a few darlings before my script came up to scratch! And it can be very hard to do when you have a particular idea in your head about a character or scene.

Dan, I disagree. Constructive criticism is how we get better. I had to listen to people criticize my movies (to my face!) at university and it turned out fine! I didn't even name the movie so everyone's feelings were spared ;)

Ingrid, you're right! Sometimes that funny or cool scene just needs to go and it sucks!

If everyone ever needs help with their writing we have great education here at Stage 32: https://www.stage32.com/webinars?search=screenwriting or contact edu@stage32.com for more information!

I don’t believe that you can learn from bad writing for the following reason.

You can only recognise bad writing if you are more experienced therefore there is nothing to be learnt. If you do not have the experience to recognise bad writing you may think it is good and adopt in your writing to your own detriment.

In my opinion.

Craig, that's an interesting point! I agree that it's easier to point out "bad" writing (although of course, even that's sometimes subjective!) if you've read some screenwriting books, but I think even people who don't study films but enjoy them pick up an intrinsic sense of "that works" and "that doesn't", even if they can't put it into words. So I believe that some people can recognise bad writing or story decisions, even if they're not trained.

Thanks for that nuanced point!

Lyndon, great to meet you, mate, wishing you all success!! BTW, all good points of view here I must say. But to reiterate Dan and CJ's point is here on Stage32, this community is ALL about inspiring, educating, and really pushing positivity in this super volatile, unpredictable industry of Moviemaking! Your post is great at pointing out a bad film and how it can unsettle its viewers. But YOU can choose to be enlightening or condescending in your review, it's your choice. You also mentioned NO BUDGET, which means it could have been non-acting friends helping for free to finish the film. (which it sounds like to me) Ego can easily fall into arrogance if not careful (hence, you never know who you could be working for or with). A critique is totally appropriate of a bad film (Hell, media writers get paid to go to premiers to shred or to love it).

But to leave you with a positive vibe, my fav "worst movie of all time" is "Plan 9 from outer space" by Ed Wood, 2nd is "Robot Monster" LOL!! I still have the VHS tapes in my 627 movie collection. Please go watch it!! Haha! Ed Wood was the epitome of "No budget" Movie Director!

Thanks, DD. I take your point about attitude. I thought I was using my criticism for positivity by talking about a specific plot point, but it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle!

This was a "real" film with real actors, and available on streaming services, it wasn't a student film by any means!

I've not seen "Plan 9 From Outer Space" although I do mean to (wait, a whole team worked hard on that movie, how dare you criticise it!). For me, I don't think you can beat "The Room" or any Neil Breen movie!

Actually, it was voted," the worst Hollywood movie of all time" by Hollywood critics! Just a reminder go watch, "Ed Wood" directed by Tim Burton. Johnny Depp played ED wood it's hilarious and great acting to pull off and replicate the stunts Ed Wood did to make his movies!I'll definitely look up, "The Room"

Yes, that's also on the list! Oh man, "The Room", you are in for a TREAT

No. Because I have never done that.

Rebecca, nothing worse than going to the cinema and halfway through thinking "oh, no..."

Oh I couldn't walk out, my poor money! I must suffer til the end!

Wiseau made the infamous "The Room" with supposedly 6mill his own money...proof anyone with money can make films....also proof money don't buy you talent...

I absolutely agree with this. Learning how not to do things takes you one step closer to doing it right! It's a really useful tool.

Firstly, I just want to say, I admire any artist who's always looking to learn via the content they consume. That's an admirable trait that should always be applauded.

How we react to other people's efforts really says a lot about ourselves and, since being a speaker in a lot of webinars over the past few years and seeing writers from the other side, you start to see these red flags.

Something a lot of newer writers like to do is bash movies and sadly their "constructive criticism" tends to stem from ignorance, taste issues, and an inability to apply context. They don't understand how films are made, they can't separate the subjective from the objective, and don't appreciate the marketplace.

One of the most common forms of unfair criticism, which seems to apply exclusively to film, is knocking a production for simply being low budget - as if the producers had any choice. People don't tear into a band for having cheap equipment or a painter for working with rough tools but they will scoff at bad green-screen, low quality effects, budget sets, etc as if the filmmakers involved preferred to go with a less than ideal solution. This applies across the board from tight shooting schedules, to less desirable talent, to restrictive lens choices, to grading. The mockery also extends to films that go straight to DVD/streaming.

The other common one is that "Hollywood" doesn't know how to make good films anymore or doesn't care if films are any good anymore which simply isn't true and tends to be a result of looking at the entire film market through a very narrow lens with no regard for who the modern audience is.

At its most extreme, this all cumulates in this stereotype writer who thinks they are above low budget movies and so talented that they can correct the course of Hollywood itself. It's an incredibly arrogant position made even worse by the fact these individuals tend to have some of the most poorly developed craft skills out there because they spend most of their time criticising the superficialities of other people's efforts rather than working on their personal development.

Long story far too long, we all have to be careful we don't appear to be one of these people and tread carefully, especially in public, by showing tact, kindness, and respect to anybody who's out there making a go of things.

The weird thing is, so many people are worried about looking amateurish on the page yet don't care about how amateurish they can appear with their attitude. If you are at a networking event and you start tearing into films and/or "Hollywood", industry members are going to see that as potentially toxic and keep their distance.

I'm not calling anyone here toxic or trying to suggest they are necessarily arrogant and/or ignorant. I'm just trying to explain how a few choice words can easily create a bad perception that's best avoided. I hope that makes some sense.

It's not like I haven't put my foot in my mouth myself either. I once went on a rant about a studio head and a film they'd made to a producer who turned out to be a close friend and huge fan.

Well, being something of a cinephile for low budget, down and dirty features, I don't know about movies I've seen that made me feel this way.

But I have read a few scripts I walked out on... and they were all scripts that got produced into big budget features so go figure lol