Screenwriting : Do you outline your script? by Vince Conside

Vince: Shitty is often in the eye of the beholder. You may want to use this wonderful website and post your logline and the first ten pages of your script. There is generally no shortage of writers here that will give you feedback. Best of luck and congrats on finishing your first draft.

Hi Vince... we each have our own way... I keep outlining, then within 20 pages I'm off track and freestyling ;-)

A tiny suggestion (well, not so tiny): cure yourself of prejudging your screenplays to colleagues. If you think your first draft is "shitty", why wouldn't professionals in this business just take your word for it?

My first drafts are always shitty. Aren't everybody's?

Exactly Kerry that's what I meant. I should have used the word rough

I won't write my script until I've written my outline. That's how i know the story will work before i format it.

I outline so I know the story works, save a lot of time rewriting. Some danged famous writer interviewed in Script Mag once said he writes a 400 page first draft so that he can get 30 pages that work, throws away the others and writes a huge second draft looking for 30 more pages (etc). I couldn't do that. I don't want to throw away that many pages.

Hi Vince.

Everyone outlines in some capacity.

Yes, I outline.

I do it like Dan. Interesting thread.

A beat sheet is a type of outline, think we're all outlining in some capacity

Yeah, you really have to outline IMHO. If you were a builder, would you start building without a blueprint of the thing you're supposed to be building? Of course not :) My personal 2 cents worth - I outline, but in a beat-sheet kinda way, i.e. I make sure each scene I outline has an arc, a negative to positive, or v-v, energy change. You may have to read/ listen to Robert McKee to really get what I mean... but I guarantee you it's worth the effort.

The more pre-story work we do before we actually sit down to write the script the better. Shane Wheeler and myself are in the development process for FRIEND OR FOE. And we're not doing any writing. We're talking about the story on the phone. Yesterday we came to an agreement on the opening and closing images. Now we'll talk out the rest of the sequences. We won't start writing a word of the script until the Logline, Synopsis, Character bios, Save The Cat Beatsheet, and all Hero Goal Sequences are filled out.

Phillip, the building analogy is used a lot but I think it's not a great one because you are making something that is art as well, not just structure. A lot of great paintings I'm sure were improvised on the spot. I'd put a screenplay somewhere between a painting and a building if that makes sense. But yeah I do think you should outline a little at least in the sense of starting with the overall storyline in its simplest form and then going into the details. Otherwise you'll have a gripping 70-page thing that doesn't go anywhere or mean anything and rewriting it to make it mean something will be really difficult!

Also like Shawn said talking the story out and pre-story work is HUGE

What's good, Dave! My main man in New York! … Thanks for talking to me about FRIEND OR FOE yesterday as well - for over a freakin' hour! Your thoughts on the opening image are definitely in the script. That's great writing! And we didn't write a word! … My man!

I find that outlining is essential for getting the background story right. It really helps with creating a rich world full of weighty emotions and interactions. The first draft is sowing the manure on the fields, to be certain, then the farmer returns to coax that crop of bounty from the field of poop.

Let's see where the money is: Go ahead and write a first draft off the top of your head, and me and Shane will write our first draft after we complete our spec-story bible. Then we post and go toe-to-toe in the S32 Screenwriting lounge! May the best First Draft win!

I see it more like a journey; you can have a vague idea of your route and destination or you can plan every step. Everyone outlines, some in their head, some via notes, and some through a strict process. Good instinct and experience always helps.

What's good, Vince! Let me get this straight… You don't feel comfortable writing an outline, but you're okay writing a screenplay - which is exponentially harder? How's that happen?

@Dave- each to his own mate. In the end, whatever your process, the results will tell you how effective it has been.

Shawn everyone is different, it just happen that way - lol

So ready to defend a process, but nothing to show for the process. Am I making my point?

"Ooh, they so sensitive…" I ask a man to put his money where his mouth is! And he goes out like that!? Wow, is what I say too.

a bit harsh and confrontational there shawn. i think you need to put the brakes on.

Generally, I start with an idea, let that soak into a general plot and incubate scene by scene. The best thing I've found for my own writing is just keep tabs on when you get bored as a writer. As soon as I feel like writing becomes a chore, I know I'm in a heap of trouble.

Painters almost always begin with a charcoal sketch. The ones who don't are in the minority. Art comes in steps. The sketch (or sketches) and then the paint... and even painting is backgrounds and then details. Layers.

Dan, not trying to be Shawn here, but you say you do a beat sheet. How is that different than an outline? I ask because my outline is basically a one page beat sheet. I figure out the basic stuff that happens, the outline, the sketch, then I write (break out the brushes and oils). My rule is: whatever works as long as the script is great. There are lots of people who don't like doing outlines, but without them their scripts don't work (or they have to write a stack of drafts because they are finding parts of the story with each draft).

Sorry to sound like a broken record but if you even so much as think about your story then you are outlining. What a debate like this is really about is people's process. What I find uncomfortable is when one writer suggests their process is better than anybody elses, mainly because there's so much anecdotal evidence to refute any single solution. There are stories of screenwriters sitting down and churning out excellent first drafts in as short as one sitting, but they are almost always very experienced and have thus trained themselves to subconsciously outline. For most of us, when we first start, we don't outline enough because we don't know what questions we should be asking ourselves and thus we hit stumbling blocks later on. Next time round we gain the sense to tackle those issues and guide ourselves better. The time after that we may have some new issues that need addressing while others have become instinctive. This is actually the building blocks of what's considered talent, practicing weaknesses until they become strengths. I'm in a very similar place to Phillip. I have to outline every beat right down to scene level to keep my mind where it needs to focus. That wasn't always the case and I don't expect it always to be the case.

I think you should give it a rest, Shawn, as a moderator you need to exercise a little more restraint, discretion and decorum - you are meant to intervene, not confront - Beth and Kathryn (think I spelt it right) would be suitable role models, I would suggest, well mostly, lol.

CJ, I think you're making too much of the "if you think about your story then you are outlining" proposition - I think about a story or story ideas, but I never consider that outlining - my method is to make a start and see where the story takes me - I know I'm in the zone when the characters begin to talk to me and virtually dictate the story which I write down - quite often I have no idea where the story I write will go and how it will end - this works for me, most writers have their own way/method of accomplishing the same end result - if you wish to be pedantic, my outline would be deemed absolutely vague and minimal, that's my modus operandi.

I respect that there are writers out there whose process is to adlib, which is a remarkable discipline in itself. But anyone working in that fashion by definition cannot be thinking about story, the two are mutually exclusive processes that can lead to the same result.

Exactly correct, CJ, it can lead to the same result.

Again i should have explained have my self better. I don't use cue cards, etc. I write my story in a step process almost like a novella. I found my process i feel comfortable with not the traditional screenwriting barnes and nobles, "you must do it this way"

I am getting in on this late but here are my 2 cents -- I have to have an outline, and personally I think writing without one is a really bad idea. Before I start writing I need to understand the story front to back -- I need to know where my marks are and shoehorn the dialogue and action to hit those marks.

What's good! I asked a man to show me a sample of how his process is working for him. And he couldn't. All I did was call a spade a spade.

lol… Welcome to the club! I get 50 plus everyday! And the moral of this story is hard work, not whining, wins the day! Nothing more.

To each their own, yes? All anyone really knows is what works best for them. :) Thank you all for sharing your process. Really appreciate it. For me, I strike a balance between outlining and improvising -- I do both. I agree with CJ, "outlining" certainly can be considered a process outside a physical outline -- call it whatever you like. :) If you are thinking about "story" you are thinking in some sort of outline/chain of events/structural way. I work things out in my head for a long time before I put it into some organized "structure." Sometimes I work a rough draft and an outline at the same time. I tend to be analytical about story, which means outlining, but then I prefer to improvise. I am a painter so I'm quite comfortable allowing the art to "tell" me where it should go. Nonetheless, outlining is a great way to organize and can be truly effective. I feel it is rather best to have a "plan" before you set off on a journey -- just allow yourself the freedom to veer off from time to time, see what happens. Truthfully though, sometimes, if you are working with a team, or are collaborating with many others, an outline can be crucial to the success of the work -- whether you like it or not. The key is willing to be flexible. Work outside your comfort zone when needed. :)

Very good point about collaboration. Learning to be able to produce an outline/beat sheet/treatment is essential for any screenwriter aiming for assignments or hoping to be able to rewrite any sold scripts.

Bottom line, no one gives a flying f*ck how others write or their journey (unless you're collaborating) . All that matters is the end result. The script. Each to their own. It's extremely arrogant to think that something as subjective as a persons thought process can be turned into a dick-measuring contest.

I am like Beth. I like to see the action/scene in my head first. If I can not visualize it, I do not write it. I outline or beat sheet each scene before I write it. I would rather go back to my notes and restructure that before editing anything I write in a script. At times I outline only 50% of the story. I start the script and I outline the rest as I go along. Everyone has a method that works best for them.

Dan, I'd have to say I assume the same -- beat sheets are rather bullet-pointed, abbreviated outlines. Sometimes the terms are used interchangeably and have different meanings to different people. My outlining is probably more in tune with a beat sheet than a heavily written outline. Although, my "beat sheets" are more detailed. So... Again, to each their own. :)

Beth: What a great post! I always begin with an outline and I agree with Shawn that good upfront work helps produce better screenplays… for me anyway. However, I’m also a big believer in improvisation during the creative process. I always get good ideas for scenes that were not in my outline. Writers can be very dogmatic about their process and what they believe works for them. I say do what works for you, support your fellow writers with constructive feedback and if people take notice of your work, consider yourself blessed. Leona: Very funny! And I"m not showing my pee pee to anyone.

Just a side note... I always love the art or painter analogy. However, as someone with a studio/art history degree I can tell you with absolute certainty that artists work in all different means and matters. Sure, in art school you are taught a "process," but most abandon it and develop their own and each artist's process is truly different in some way. This, of course, gets into technical artists verses visionary artists verses all those in-between. Many artists may start with some sort of sketch, and many just hit the canvas with an open mind -- see where the painting takes them. Explore. For artists, sometimes it's not the art in itself, but rather the process of making the art -- that IS the art. The end result just happens to be a painting (Jackson Pollock, for example). I don't know if the same can be said for writing? At least for screenwriting? Perhaps? Truly comparing one art form to another is a whole different discussion... Anyway, sorry for digressing... Back to the thread topic. :)

Phallicism aside, some writers (from either gender) are dogmatic and arrogant. It's sad really. We should be more supportive. :)

@Beth. Some writers are not supportive because they feel helpibng aspiring writers is beneath them and a waste of time. They would rather help those that already have their foot in the door to help keep theirs in it.

It all comes down to networking and having a positive attitude to make people want to work with you. If a seasoned writer smells desperation or immaturity, then you have a longer uphill battle. It is all about how you carry yourself in the room.

Glad to hear it, Phillip!

@ Beth & Owen. Agree. It's okay to not be interested in someone else's work - jog on. But when someone takes the time and energy to tear others down, it says far more about them than it does about the person trying and putting themselves out there. Unfortunately it's something we can all be guilty of at times :(

Very true everyone! Great points all around! Great point, Leona, about how negative behavior reflects poorly on the person tearing others down rather than those on the receiving end. It takes great courage to put yourself out there. The larger truth is this: focus on the things you can control. Who's got time for negativity? I don't! If someone/something stands in your way, go around. Find those that support you. It takes a village to get those scripts market ready! :)

David: I suspect you’re right about journeyman writers not wishing to help lesser experienced people. I subscribe to the opposite philosophy. Call it Karmic justice or whatever; but the more success you achieve in life, the more you should wish to help others. No matter what comes my way, I hope I never fall into the aforementioned first category.

Virtual group hug everyone? Yes? I sure feel the support. :)

You know I've tried outlining and I can't say that it helped. Doing that meant I had to guide the pen in to a specific direction of story telling. I much prefer letting it just come right out of my brain. Set it aside for a few days then go back and connect the missing dots. I don't end up with a headache, I don't lose sleep over it and most of all, I stay married. :)

Dipping back into the art and painting thing. Not all painting constitutes art. I only learned recently that a lot of older paintings were effectively photographs made using a camera obscura. The artists were just painting over a projected image. Not so much Save the Cat as Trace the Cat.

Okay, Vince, I guess the consensus is this: to each their own. Explore a process that works best for you -- whether outline, improvisation, or both. :) There is no "one way." However, perhaps be open to outlining/beat sheets as they are a successful and effective way of working. Their use probably will come up as an expected or standard means of working with others in the industry. So, be well-attuned. In the end, this is a business of collaboration. We all do better if we are willing to "play well with others." Or, at least, respect each other. ;)

I was makeing food... did I miss the group hug? ;-)

"Tracing" has been part of art since -- forever. It does not weigh heavily in determining whether something is art or not. It's part of the technical side/means/process. Even more so today with all the digital advantages. As long as photography has been around it has been utilized. Is photography in itself not art? Of course it is. Art is much more than the end product. It is the idea, the vision. Someone may trace an element, but how they use it, or how they interpret it, or recreate it, or what new visual meaning they give it, is where art lives and thrives. It's much more than an argument of "how" something was created to call it "art" but rather the end expression. Surely, as screenwriters we all understand that. We "borrow" from everything, pull from influences, mix it with our own interpretation and create something new. "Good artists copy; great artists steal." ;) I love art because it serves no other purpose than to express.

@Phillip. I agree. Everyone does not act that way. Some experienced writers do go out of their way to provide tips of wisdom. To those not wanting to help it may just take a spark for them to see how serious the individual is and not wanting a free ride to the top. I guess it just varies....like when writing a beat sheet or outline!

I had a great idea for a short script featuring a camera obscura (based on the one in Edinburgh) a few months ago... thanks for the nudge CJ, back to top of the list.

Virtual group hug again, just for you, Anthony. :)

Thank you Beth/all, I can feel the virtual love ;-)

I think we have gone off topic

The "S" stands for "support." Obviously. Haha! ;) And, yes, we've gone astray -- yet again... Okay, back to regular programming. ;)

Anthony: tipping my hat I hail you sir!.

lol - thanks Phillip!

Thanks for the feedback!!!!

Okay. I'll stick my two cents worth in .... Based on 35 years writing all kinds of pieces (from 500-word blog posts to 600-page novels and both fiction and non-fiction) I can say categorically that I ALWAYS outline, but seldom write the outline down. I'll think about the story (every piece can be approached as a story) until I understand the points I want to make and the order in which I want to make them, then start pounding out copy. Most professional journalists (who are invariably working on a deadline) do pretty much the same thing. It takes longer to type an outline than to think it. The big exception is when someone hires you to write something specific, and you want to make sure what you plan to produce is what the client wants. Use an outline to communicate your plans to your client. Otherwise, by the time you've completed the outline, you'll never need to look at it again. The only time I ever advised a professional writer to make an outline was one time when I was Chief Editor on a trade magazine. One of my veteran writers turned in a piece that was gobbledygook. It was just a pile of ideas in random order. I told him to go back and make an outline, then rewrite the piece. He said: "I never make outlines, anymore." I said: "Yeah, I can tell. Do it this time." The next day he turned in a wonderful piece, and said: "Yeah, as soon as I started making the outline, I saw what was wrong." He never finished the outline, just cut and pasted the ideas into an arrangement that worked.

So here is a classic example of how reading your own scripts over and over and over.. then over some more can help. In my short film, (which I just spent 18 hours editing for a 7min 45sec. showing,) I mention one word three times almost in a row, and the words, I was, she was, I was. Nearly almost as closely together as the one word three times. Well a tad bit late to fix it now. LOL It's ok, its just my thesis film for school before I graduate this June. It has run me nearly $600.00 to make.

JP, that's why we always try to have someone else (an experienced editor, preferably) read everything longer than one page before we decide it's done.

I read once that Phillip Ludlum outlined his books in great detail, but by the middle of the book the characters had taken over. Sound familiar?

@Jim, that's why his brother Robert was so much more successful.

Donkeys years ago I got to see three studio, classic hack screenwriters in action - writing. Charlie, who was the man who took me under his wing planned pretty much in the way Charles Masi talks off. Charlie used to call it 'dream time'. In fact the first question he ever asked me - when he found me pounding my portable - was - do you do dream time? When I said yes and introduced him to the joys of English mustard on his salt beef, he grudgingly took a dumb limey wannabee writer under his wing. But dream time only works if you are professional writer and you can immerse yourself - for four weeks - utterly and totally in the project. You eat, sleep and dream the story - until the first draft has been born. Another one of his mates, did what I dubbed 'wallpaper and wax'. He literally taped a long sheet of wallpaper around his office wall and scrawled the outline of the story, characters, plot twists - on it with different colored, children's wax crayons. And the other chum - used the classic index card method. All of them were professional screenwriters and all of them had more movies under their belts than most of us will have hot dinners. ME - I write as Dan has said. I write a very, very, very detailed beat sheet. Not the bullet beat sheet I give to my producers but a beat sheet designed to help me plan out my story. I have always called it a 'detailed beat sheet' - although Beth has indicated that what I have really been doing is writing an outline. In the end - it's what works for you. My own view - is that many aspiring but particularly young writers (sorry - in Charlie Warren's eyes you become a screenwriter when you got your first credit and joined one of the unions) seem to have spent a fortune on college writing courses and goodness know what else - and end up clinging desperately to systems and formats like a security blanket. That somehow by following the cat - it will lead them through the bleak wilderness that is screenwriting. A few months ago - one writer even admonished me for pointing out - 'that no producer gives a damn if you don't know the difference between math and maths'. There was an outraged squeak - of 'you obviously don't know your stuff'. No - obviously not - thank goodness. I'm just the dumb guy that dreams up stories. As I said then - it's THE STORY. Dream up a story that catches a producers imagination and is commercial enough to garner the serious amount of money that feature films cost to make and you are in on the first floor. OK - the basement. Write your little arse off and impress. Remember - you never get precious over a screenplay. And nobody - but in your dreams - is going to write you out a cheque for $20,000. Most projects begin with seed money - so cut the best deal that you can and get that movie made. You will hate it - but it's all yours. Your first credit.

FYI. Beat sheet = Outline.