Screenwriting : Hey Screenwriters...Can we talk? by Doug Nelson

good story- Characters in action, struggle bad story- no action, no struggle, 'a walk in the park."

I guess it all depends on what you mean by a story. I'll bet you Dan MaxXx's next royalty check not everyone can even agree on a definition.

Story: When a protagonist is forced to deal with an emotional problem in order to deal with a physical (filmable) conflict. Make sure there are stakes and a deadline. A good story transports the audience - takes them on a vacation from their lives (and problems) for 2 hours. It makes them feel real emotions - as if they have lived the protagonist's life.

A story that moves you to feel one way or the other..

A good story is compelling and engaging. :)

The audience has to care what happens, and the story has to make sense.

Plenty of conflict and characters that are emotive.

So far, I'd say you're all right and you're all wrong. What makes a story/film good or not so much depends on who watches it. Does a story really need to make adult sense to a 10 year old to be good in their eyes? When you say it must be compelling and engaging; to who? Confronting emotional problems, conflicts, ticking clocks, high stakes, action, struggles all make good stories, but for who? The audience! Back to a question I raised a few days ago – when you write a story, do you consider who is your audience. So many writers assume that they are writing for an audience made up of themselves and that's seldom the case

Yes, compelling and engaging for the audience, of course—and for everyone and anyone. That's already implied, is it not? Plus a story can be considered, determined and recognized as "good" regardless of its target audience—whether you're a part of that target or not. There's another large component to determining if a story is good or not: subjectivity. It too plays a large role. Personal opinion will always factor in. What you deem as "good," I may not—and vice versa.

Initial question, what makes a story/film good? No one has thrown out here TRUE STORY. Obviously not every screenplay can be "true" or "based on" and I DO NOT advocate guising fiction as real/true . If however "true" or "based on" is factual that emphasis shown will grab the audience, targeted or not and draw them into the story because it is not a story, it is real, "we want to see what happened". If I am wrong I guess "Goodfellas" wasn't "Good" or "Blow" or "The Basketball Diaries" or "Blackhawk Down", "Young Guns", "Alpha Dog", I could go on for an hour. In regards to fiction, you take the success of your work in your hands. I have great respect for fiction writers because you completely and absolutely make the story. Make it original and somewhat entertaining, not entirely for you and not trying to entertain everyone. It just might sell, perfect example "Napoleon Dynamite". Anything can sell if it hits a nerve with a large enough audience, just write it, not every work is Kubrick or Scorsese .

I think if you already have your audience in mind before you wrote the first word the story won't flow. It will be a construction only and not be authentic - and I guess this is what @Adam S. meant by "the story has to be true". The story only transports the audience when they feel as if it was or could be reality. This happens when a story is authentic. Then, if you begin thinking about the audience or target group (=the folks who will pay to see your movie) before you write your script - aren't you then exactly this mercenary type?

I think most answers have been given above and that you have a clear image of what makes a good story. What I would like to add is to be original. I've read bad screenplays that got sold because they had a killer concept. That's where it all starts with. If it's a twelve-in-a-dozen concept, it can still stand out when the writer has his/hers own unique voice (think Charlie Kaufman, Quentin Tarantino.)

Dan-- yep ... most creative execs (not all) don't know a good story from a steak sandwich. Can you write, can you deliver. It's a business.

As screenwriters are we so focused on creating "good stories" that we sometimes overlook that this is a business, and as such, maybe we'd be better served career-wise focusing first on a concept that sells versus the story we want to tell? Sure we'd all like to win an Academy Award for our brilliant period piece drama, but the Baywatch writers were employed for 11 years (Okay, I assume at least of them were) for a show that did not have compelling (as in emotionally or psychologically) characters or a great story. It did have Pamela Anderson however, but that just goes to prove that depending on what you're writing and who you're writing it for (aka your target market), a good story isn't mandatory. While I would never suggest a strong story and rich, engaging characters are not important, but one take on it would be to think of your pitch first from a commercial point-of-view (i.e. knock them out with the concept), then - if required - worry about creating a good story to accompany it. Kind of like thinking of ourselves as inventors or entrepreneurs: Find an opportunity, a need, in the marketplace, then fill it with your revolutionary new product.

Experience. It all comes from life and personal experiences. Drawing on things that you know to be true creates a genuine, emotional feeling in the script that audiences can't help but connect to.

Experience? Some live long and interesting lives, most live pretty mundane existences. One distinct advantage mature writers have is the ability to look back on how something they witnessed worked out, so yes life experience does play a role. There are many historical figures who have done interesting things worthy of a writer's inspiration and unless your known as 007, nobody is really interested about you or me. I think I'm fascinating but I doubt that anyone else cares. Sometime you're going to have to figure how you're going to pay the rent and survive. Very few manage to survive by writing but there is no shame in being an accountant, a dentist, a chef or an attorney – okay, some shame there – but you get the point. Not everybody is a writer but don't give up trying.

Well when it comes to narrative feature storytelling, this is the basic secret sauce I was taught to keep in mind while writing way back in film school. Question: what makes a good story well told? Answer: a good story well told consists of a strong, central protagonist whom the audience can sympathize with (does not have to be likeable necessarily) who wants something very badly, and there are obstacles in their way to getting what they want. If the protagonist does not get what they want, there will be dire consequences in the end. The stakes must be high enough to make the protagonist spring into action to pursue the thing they are after, and at the end they either succeed in getting what they want, or fail. Easy to remember, difficult to put into practice.

Your question is what makes a story good - in my opinion it's connecting it to something that means something to you - so your heart and passion is in it. :) For a more practical approach, i.e: being paid for an assignment that might not be the approach to take, you might have to dream up a whole world. But I haven't had a paid assignment as yet so I can't speak on that experience

I still say that you all are right and that you all are wrong, to varying degrees. Most seem hung up on the belief that a good story only fits the FL film format. Try writing a short. Try writing a 30 second story. Keep your eyes open – it may run in your market - “Me Tarzan...Tarzan know where Tarzan go”... It's a complete story in 30 seconds. A good story is compelling to its target audience. (That's only a start.)

Everyone here is right, none wrong, Elisabeth, Phillip, Patrick, Dan, Semira, and Myself. Absolute and inconceivable fantasy is good for morons who will get high and zone out on anything. Element of believable truth, even in pure fiction draws the audience in Gonzo style, R.I.P. H.S.T. You become part of the story because it is or seems real. The basic premise here I want to get across either way is just f--king write it, don't be a f--king sell out who is ONLY trying to sell. "From the soul will sell, so don't sell your soul", A.S.M. Doug, you are right, more than likely none of us in this discussion here will be the next Scorsese. My full length screenplay, "American Music", True story, as well as my songs will probably never make it to anything, but I write anyway.

What makes a story compelling: a character who wants something & there's a deadline to this urgency. What makes a story RIVETING is a character who wants something & by pursuing this, s/he winds up harming a loved one or himself/herself and has to figure out this dilemma.

You are everyone in your dreams, and I'd say everyone in your scripts too. So I think character is a huge part of good writing. An interesting character in a mundane story still has potential, where as crap characters in the best story is still crap.

Very interesting discussion. I would like to add that it all begins with ourselves, with me/you as the writer. Everything I/you ever experienced, saw, read, heard, felt, tasted, smelled etc. will influence my/your writing. In this sense I agree that good writing depends on your experience. Meaning, the better you know yourself and all your strengths and weaknesses the better your writing will be, the better your stories will be. Of course you then need a construction for your story, but it will get this unique voice and by this your story will get these special elements and ideas which only you can create. This actually is what makes the story great. The rest is like a sewing pattern. You write 120 pages, you will know exactly what happens at the end of page 3, 10, 30, 45, 60 etc. or you dare to create your own rules and write what and how you want it. Anything is possible. If a Martin Scorsese and a Quentin Tarantino could make it why shouldn't any other be able to create, write and film great stories? Remember The Secret? All and everybody is energy. Nothing more, nothing less. Hence, as long as one of us human beings can do anything all others are able to do the same (which would be boring so I prefer saying something similar or comparable) - it's all up to your mind. Happy Writing, good luck and success for all of our projects. We are a community and I always enjoy the diversity of characters here. #love and all the best!

Adam you are completely right "The basic premise here I want to get across either way is just f--king write it, don't be a f--king sell out who is ONLY trying to sell." I didn't know if it was only my perspective that was thinking "don't try to write to sell" but these mirror my sentiments exactly.

@Semira, that is what I mentioned in my first comment as well. I think the selling comes afterwards. If you then get the advice to re-write it here and there that's a different point from my point of view. First of all you should sit down and write your story. @Dan, I totally agree to what you call reality. We get hired for our writing talent and have to create sometimes really crappy ideas of strange producers. One has to live. One for the money, two for the show - or better vice versa? :)

Elizabeth - yes! you are right - I just reread your comment and you're absolutely right. You can't box yourself in so early on worrying about audience and selling and what they might like. Audience connects with reality and truth which is why I mentioned life experiences and relationships. Doesn't even have to be your own - but stories from your friends or other people such as historical figures as was mentioned. We get hired for being able to put emotions and situations into relatable emotional words/stories. Just write. Just write and then take the notes afterwards. haha I love that in relation to our craft Elizabeth - too clever!

Okay, here's the thing, a side comment... Yes, this is a business. Yes, pleasing the audience is always a factor. But one of the things that makes storytelling/filmmaking so special—perhaps I'm leaning more towards independent filmmaking—is that writers/filmmakers make their films as an expression of themselves, their experiences or about a story they feel needs to be told. Done well it is engaging, creates interest, draws an audience and thus makes $$$$. There's no right or wrong here. There's only complexity. And "success" is subjective. Why belittle writers, or anyone else for that matter? I tire of this weird "battle" or defensive argument about "us/them" being either an artist or being a "sell out." The truth is: it's a complex blend of both—artistic vision and business.

My opinion here but for me to make a story good there has to be some kind of emotional investment in it whether it is for the writer, audience, or both. I have seen some blockbuster films that have made really big piles of cash but when I get down to the story, there really isn't an emotional investment. On the other side, a small budget indie film may have that emotional investment. And honestly, it can go either way. As long as there is that emotional investment from someone (hopefully both the writer and the audience), then you have a pretty good film. This is my opinion.

Richard - 100% what I've been trying to say. Beth - I think sometimes (maybe I'm totally off on this) some try to find a sure fire way to be successful writers but there is no right or wrong way. Just write, practice and hone your craft

And always - a great piece of advice I've been told (and I'm sure is evident) we are our business, we have to think that way too

I've had the honor to work in 'story' via many different forms. Journalism, advertising, documentary, commercial, improv, song, story boards, art, story books, novels, screenplays, and even spending a year with the International Storytelling Center in Jonesborough, TN, where every year tens of thousands of people from around the world gather to LISTEN to stories during their annual festival. One thing is constant across of the various forms and that is, tapping into a universal emotion with the use of words and imagery. To do this most effectively, the artist needs to first get in the mindset of the audience and understand what pushes their buttons. Then, it's just a matter of delivery via well developed characters whose emotions, and probably life, are at stake. So, 1) be true to the genre and you're true to the audience 2) give us a reason to care

I'm glad to see that we have a relatively civil discussion going. Let's keep it that way...without any acrimonious posturing...we can all learn. Screenwriting is one of those nebulous affairs where the writer must bare his/her soul for all to see – a frightening condition for most. Story comes from your heart and/or your brain. Being helpful/supportive of others comes from your heart; being helpful/supportive of yourself comes from the brain. He true story writer draws on a mix of both. The single most operative word I see in all these posts is “Audience”. When that story seed begins to germinate in you, do you really take a moment to reflect on who you're penning this story for, and why? You really should. Having been around for many decades has provided me an historical view of the commercial film making world – I've watched the rise and demise of the Weepies, Creepies and Oaters. The T & A shows have pretty much given way to the Guns & Giggles/Wiggles format and that will evolve more as the Moron factor expands. I've also had the pleasure of observing the birth of Indie Filmmaker movement. I've watched it grow from a toddler into what I'd label as pre-adolescence – thet 'tween period. Most of you talk about story as it fits more comfortably in the Indie film world and I think that's a terrific trend. The big $$ screenwriters in Hollywood tend to be the more mercenary types who would just as soon you not pester them as Hollywood is already on life-support. Keep the dream alive but I think you'll finder greater personal satisfaction (I could be wrong) in the burgeoning Indie world. So storytellers, write on.

doug Few filmmakers/Screenwriters have $$$ to start careers with bells and whistles. Perhaps, teach newbie Writers to write 'small', cast and locations so they can make it themselves? No car chases, no big set pieces, no 20 cast members. Just tell a story. The audience and Hollywood will find the great story-tellers.

Dan M, what you say is very true...extremely few. I definitely encourage new writers/directors/DP/actors to unite and locally produce small (short) films as a learning process and an entryway to their hopeful careers. Now I'm not a wealthy man by any stretch of imagination but I could easily write a $30K check for a short right now (but I won't), I'm reasonably confident that I could find $300K within a week or so if I wanted but it's taken us over six months to put a $1M J.V. Together (whole different industry) and the Attorneys are still foolin' around with the paper-work. So I understand what you say. If you put together a strong short, promote it on the festival circuit, it will help your career climb. Start small & slowly, grow, keep your eye on the prize and you can make it up the hill of marbles.

Doug I dont want to discourage writers or name drop but I know two people (a Director & a Writer team) who made a short movie and won a HBO Award. From that short, the Director went on to direct 2 studio released major features and is currently, a in-demand Television Director. No such success for the Writer though. a Short movie, good storytelling, will open doors to People with power and money$$$. That's not selling out; it is about getting an invitation to the big dance, a player.

I'm with Dan on this one. Nothing wrong if a writer get the invite to the "big dance". I don't consider that selling out. That's fantastic. I think we all are working to get to that point.

Haven't read the article yet, but think the same way, Dan. It's probably true that we have to direct some of our stories on our own - and why not, we will develop further, know another field of the business and become better. This is indeed the way most Indie filmmakers take - and I must say I had no problem at all if this was my way to establish in film business. This reminds me to Wim Wenders as his script for "Paris, Texas" was the first I ever read - and (sorry Wim) so boring to read. But I always admired how he followed his dream worked and stayed independent. This is a kind of freedom I'd really like to have. Hence, if we all are Indies (without knowing it) I would love to work with people who think alike.

Wow, Dan, that's indeed fantastic and shows that you get acceptance when you expect it less and write free and without any expectations or plans who would buy it and how much they will pay or offer you. I only don't quite agree to the last point as I would say the really biggest reward for me would be that the audience love to watch my stories and can't wait for the next. Of course I admit that the other reward has to happen first. lol.

There's has to be a connection between your lead character and the audience. You have to create empathy, so that the audience have a chance of caring to what happens to your character and stick around till the in.

I see your points Dan Guardino. But backstory here: I did professional wrestling on the independent level for 3 years. And yeah it was great to hear someone from the roster get a call up to WWE. But when that happened, immediately they were called a "sell out" because WWE was wanting them on the roster and pay them. It was almost like the ones who were saying that were being jealous for the guy moving up in the world. And it kind of hurt because this kid worked his ass off to get to at least WWE talking to him. So when I see a writer get moved up a level, I am happy for them. But also waiting for the the other shoe to drop because someone will say they "sold out". Which it shows maybe that person is jealous that someone liked that persons work over his/hers and that is the only thing they can say. But no doubt, when someone indie or not reads your stuff, it is an awesome feeling.

Richard- Pros get paid$$$$. It's a job, you take the good and the bad and try to find a reason to do it. Can't be about $$$ (not always). Dont be a Writer working on 1 screenplay for 20+++ years and blame failure on Hollywood gatekeepers or a crazy conspiracy. Put $$$ in People's bank accounts and they will always take your call/query/read your script. BTW, I'm a big WWE fan. Tried to get a Writer's job with WWE in Connecticut HQ. I still have their rejection letter :)

Chiming in late but I am more like Dan G when it comes to writing. I do have my pet projects, but writing for me is a business and I prefer to make $ doing it where I can. I want a producer or other exec to see that I can write, so I can get hired to do their adaptions, rewrites, etc. My hope is that someday I might have the connections to see one of my own scripts produced, but I'm not counting on it.

I have my personal passion projects that I'd love to independently make one day where I can protect my creative vision but I'm not against writing for studios or producers where I might not necessarily love the idea - but I'm getting paid and recognized as a professional who's good at her craft and willing to work.

Doug, Being a Police Detective that lived a double life for many years working with The FBI, DEA and ATF as well as Local & State Police, I get the same question over and over: "What is the best case you ever worked on?" People are interested in behind the scenes of Police work, especially deep Cover work. There are very few deep Cover Detectives in this country. It's a tough job for most. I published one book for fun at age 65, now I have ten published. Then I started hearing people say,: " this should be on the big screen" and statements like that. So I learned, taught myself screen writing. Remember, I am actually enjoying doing all these things at my age, it's fun for me. So here I sit with factual books, TV shows and Movie projects. had a lot of fun. People love the stories and the back stories like the Butcher of Boston for one who murdered 25 women and The Preyers where 6 men were murdered because they were thought to be informants. I think that these are good stories because they based on real cases that i worked. I'm not sure if i answered your question Doug, but I think you get the idea. Most people like to know what is behind the curtain and I show them with my stories. Thanks for reading this.

Mr. Dan MaxXx I see your point there. What I was referring to was how we make someone who goes to the next level like its a bad thing, henceforth making it sound negative to "sell out". Sorry if that message was missed. And nice on going after the WWE job.

To weigh in, it IS the story that matters. Strong character development = strong story. Strong talent = strong story. Strong script = strong story. Strong director = strong story. Every ounce put into film leads to the story. Just my two cents.

Dan Guardino, No none produced. I have, scripts completed, Synopsis, log lines, budgets and actors lined up via their agents...my problem is getting funded. If you think that we should talk I can be reached via Bassweeder@gmail.com ......Send you an e-mail....

Ernie, It would be helpful if you would post a logline & synopsis so that we have a better feel for your story. I'm not in a position to even think about producing a FL film or a TV series – but I do know people who are. (And I have a pretty good idea what they like/look for.)

Doug, Thank you for your consideration. I now live in Florida, but my career was in the Northeast. Therefore most of my stories are based on NYC and Boston although I worked in many states. Here is one log line for THE PREYERS: In New York is the Joey Bats Borgazino family. In Massachusetts is Detective Ernie Lijoi Sr., when multiple murders’ connect these adversaries the explosion occurs……. (An Eddie Pannoni Thriller—“THE PREYERS”) If you wish more information contact me via e-mail: Bassweeder@Gmail.com

Dan Guardino, I think you totally and utterly nailed it with this statement: "Most the scripts I write are what producers come up with or novels someone else wrote. That is what most screenwriters really end up doing to make money." At some point during the last twenty or thirty years, the paradigm has really shifted away from producers and studios looking for original content to either hiring writers to develop ideas they believe will be financially viable or adaptations of pre-existing properties (comic books, novels, video and board games, TV show, remakes of old movies, reboots of remakes of old movies based on comic books, etc.). The old "we only bet on a sure thing" approach. That's not to say it isn't possible to write an incredible screenplay that will get made into a movie, but it's even more likely that a writer will be hired to develop someone else's pre-existing ideas. There should be a renaissance of original and unique storytelling, if only because, at some point, they're going to run out of comic books and cult movies from the Eighties to (re)make into films.

I'm waiting for that day to come. I detest seeing classic 80s movies being remade, and Old Hollywood movies. And super over the comic book saturation we're currently in

Ernie, That e-mail doesn't work for me for some reason. I did look at The Preyers page though. It looks to me like your already casting for production in Florida – ya? I have a Hollywood literary agent in mind and a long time mystery series show runner in mind that each/both might have an interest if it's still available. What say?

Just got called a sell out for sharing my pilot script. Guess I should have stayed under the duvet and kept it to myself, that'll get it made!!

Doug, We began pre-production at one point, but the investors turned out to be scammers. All of my projects are available and ready to go. Once we have contact I can send the synopsis, if you wish.

Doug, all of my projects are available and ready to go (or close to ready). I sent you a network request. Once you OK the request, I can send you an e-mail. Until then the only suggestion I have is to try my e-mail again Bassweeder@Gmail.com Thank you for your interest.

Mm, many people refer to "good story", but I'm not so sure, there is also execution - good story to whom? It depends on your target audience, age group, maturity - I loved the second Kill Bill better than the first because I thought the "story" better and more satisfying, yet I heard many complain the second was boring and preferred the action and mayhem and endless slaughter of the first - there are many pieces of the jigsaw - good story, high stakes, deadlines are only a part of the equation - obviously, compelling and engaging wouldn't hurt either - you can have all the ingredients at your disposal, but ultimately, you need to nail the recipe - how many big films have "bombed" even with the best talent available, not to mention a "good story" - geez, you need to get a lot right.

Chanel; “good story to whom?” You got it Chanel – it's the audience. I tried starting a thread on that issue earlier but very few writers were interested so I conclude that the majority of writers don't even think about their audience – you're way ahead of the pack.

Ernie, I answered your network request, so let's set up a private dialog...eh?

Mark, I fail see how that makes you a sell-out. Willingness to share and be called a sell-out for it simply does not compute in my mind.

First let me say great post. And Doug, maybe they are all right, in that they're all wrong or vice versa. After reading the post and all the comments, I'd have to agree with "it's business." I read, seen, and heard enough bad stories to realize a good one. But that's perspective. What I found interesting is audience? Target to be exact. So a story isn't good unless it attracts an audience. For example, you make up a story for your child. They love it. They sit by the door, staring out the window until you get home so you can continue it. That's all they talk about. Clearly, a good story. Right?!!! So target audience, whether they like it or not, it's a good story or not becomes whoever pays for it. The irony, I could scribble up a screenplay that even I wouldn't pay to see and still come out on top.

Yes, Steven, you are right. It's all about business $$$, but every so often someone comes around, who connects with your story, something hits them and that person becomes your champion, that person will fight for you and your work. It happened with Rocky, Driving Miss Daisy, American Pie, the question is, will I (any of us) find that person, one can only hope and continue writing, creating, searching within our souls for stories that will move, touch, entertain and yes, bring in $$$. HOPE never quits. Peace.

I don't have the experience of most of the people on this page, but I do have an opinion about this targeting. I believe that their are many targets to each movie. In my case; If I would want to target the older people; i need older well known actors...To target the college people I speak with my grandchildren ( college age) and see who is hot (as actors) and target them for a decent part. and so on. The other target is the interest of the public both young and old. That's the hard one. I believe that that is where the story line comes in and takes over. I think that i have done it with my shows. we'll find out if they ever get funded......LOL...... The music and sound plays a big part in this area. Just an opinion.... Am I wrong?

Ernie, you're not wrong. Your bio indicates that you have far and away more experience under tour belt than the vast majority of folks who frequent this forum and it's those life's experiences that are a well of creative story telling. The craft of writing your stories is a fairly straight forward, fairly simple process; the creative art of compiling a compelling story from those experiences is a bit more complex. The writer's job is to create a compelling story in a genre with a particular target audience in mind – broadly speaking we have ratings for that; PG, R, X.... And within those are many sub-markets; child (boy/girl), YA, family, on & on. You have certain characters in mind when writing your story but try to avoid being so specific that shackle the Director & Casting Agent. I almost always have some actor in mind when I write – I love Peter Sellers, Spencer Tracy, Lee Marvin, Jacques Tati and so many more but as a practical matter we need to cast actors that are a little less dead. And yes the score is very important to the film and its audience. (It takes more that a writer to make a movie.)

Dan G, I hope that's how Mark intended his comment. But please keep in mind that I'm just an old, slow country boy.

Doug, thank you for that statement. Like my team on my job, it take an entire team and a lot of work to crate a great film. All aspects must be considered by (the captain or chief so to speak) the director. He directs the orchestra that creates the great film.

To all, it does indeed to take a team to create a film and as the writer, you are only one cog in that wheel. Every member of your cast & crew – from the Director to the PA Intern is the single most valuable player, and must be treated that way. One monkey can screw up your show!

Yes, Dan Guardino.....If I want to attract the older crown I need actors that they know.....The younger crowd is the same and in my scripts there is room for both. My projects will run about 35 m. each to produce. That's the problem. Getting the money. I already have verbal approval from Top actors ("A" list), but you don't get those guys on the set without the cash too pay out and their lies the Rub......LOL......I can do this because I am retired and have time. If it does not work out that's OK as well. If someone comes along and wants to produce it on a lower level i would defiantly consider it. Bu the way Dan, you request my synopsis and treatments which I sent, but I never heard back from you??? Your opinion would be of value. Thanks for asking.

hey Ernie there's a Producer doing a webinar pitch tomorrow on stage 32. He produces true life stories (Blind Side, The Founder). Check him out. You're in his budget range and you have the Novels.

Dan MaxXx, thank you for this information.Do you know where I can find out more about this?

hey Ernie Sign up here: https://www.stage32.com/happy-writers/pitch-sessions/Pitch-Holly-Brown-S...

Doug, I just sent you that information. I did the best that I could with separating the first 14 pages. Read the entire e-mail....I sent some additional information that is very interesting and just came up. Let me know if this is good enough. Thanks for your interest.

Dan MaxXx, I want to thank you for that information, however I have no confidence in these Stage 32 contests or interviews. The people doing them, in my opinion are there for the money. Get you out of the way and move on to the next dollar. Sorry, but that's how I feel about them....Thank you anyway for your interest.

Ernie Lijoi: Have you pitched here on Stage 32? With who? More than once and what is your impression.? Although, from your answer to Dan MaXxx I gathered that you have and didn't leave a good taste in your mouth, for lack of a better word. ???

Jorge J. Prieto, I have not paid to pitch anyone...That's how it's done.....I paid to enter a Screen Play contest that supposedly ended a while back, but got nothing. Not even a sorry, you don't or didn't qualify...In my opinion this is a nice site to meet good people and learn from them, but not to pay for or get exposure.

That may be how you feel, Ernie, but respectfully perhaps glance through the Happy Writers success stories and testimonials to see other members' experiences and personal opinions. :)

Ernie, why don't you tell me how it's done. I haven't had to pitch anything for a few years so I may not be up to speed. I recall attending Writer's Conferences in the past in which the pitch sessions were “free” but of course the conference fees were in the hundreds of $. I don't know what Stage 32 charges for pitch sessions but I'm sure it less than the Writer's Conference fees.

Each screenplay contest has qualification rounds. Each round is emailed to all attendees announcing quarter-finalists, semi-finalists and so on. Also the contest page itself lists all the winners after they are announced. Here's the most recent one that ended in March: https://www.stage32.com/happy-writers/contests/Stage-32-Happy-Writers-TV...

What I'm interested in knowing what has happened to all the screenwriters who have had success stories after pitching? In other words, where are they now? Or does every success story begins and ends with just that, " my screenplay John Doe, was requested by Augustine Calderon!" Success Story. Then what? What happened to the John Doe project and the screenwriter. I think I only know of one screenwriter here who's success went beyond just a "request" Frank Ponce and his horror screenplay. BETH: I've been through the list of Happy writers testimonials, but have not been able to get any further feedback from this writers, except one, who actually told me, he was asked for more money from the person he pitch to in order to read the screenplay. So, I do agree this is a GREAT place to meet amazing people (I.e. BETH Fox) connecting, JOBS, classes Webinars, but we have to be honest with ourselves, getting a screenplay that grabs the attention of Execs here or anywhere else, who want to champion for you that story, it's one in a million. However they (The Executive) keep coming back, for a minimal cost, they give us 6 - 8 minutes to our pitch, when probably after the first 3 minutes they already made up their minds. "pass" Next! Maybe this is why, we don't ever hear from these writers ever again in the lounges or elsewhere. I know this because I have been lucky to have connected with great, giving, amazing creative people here and many are no longer visible here, which SADDENS ME. I'll leave it at that. Hope I didn't offend anyone here or condone either.

Ernie: Thanks for answering me. But as far as contest here Tomasz is right. If you make the first cut, your name goes and so on until the winners are announced. This are the rules. Pitching? That's a whole different ballgame and the odds are definitely stacked against the screenwriter, since none of us who pitch here have an agent or manager, those who do have one, don't need to pay anyone to pitch, that's what the manager or agent is for and it's them who collect a commission from the writers. Good luck.

BTW, speaking of the devil, I send Frank Ponce a request a while back, no response. Is he even a member still? Or one the "success stories" who no longer wants to be bothered with S32? Or too busy to check in from time to time? Sad. (chuckle)

Hey Jorge. I can't comment on what happened between one writer and the person they pitched to because I do not have personal knowledge of that particular situation -- perhaps after the pitch the conversation turned to consulting or coverage, which may or may not require a fee. Regardless, several writers have been signed and/or have advanced in their screenwriting goals. Several of those writers did videos about their experience; they were posted on the site. Anyway, I think it would be great to have some of those writers give us an update; where are they now -- good idea. :)

You know what, Jorge -- enough. 'chuckle' I happen to be a successful screenwriter and producer and Stage 32 has helped tremendously for me in all of the services they offer. i have at least 5 projects on my slate that would not have happened without this site and countless jobs come to me just through networking on here. I am TOO busy to be in every conversation and engage every person, but I am not too busy to put someone in their place who is way out of line. One thing for sure is, if you act like a snarky, entitled, ass you will get nowhere in this business paid pitch or not.

Jorge, “where are they now?” I can only answer your question as one screenwriter. I started in 1974(?) when I sold a script to MTM Productions – I don't remember pitching it per se. I've spent years in the Writer's Room where I've made some long time connections but I did have to get a real daytime job. But I developed a little cottage industry writing and optioning/selling scripts thru pitching at some of the writer's conferences. Now I have a couple of agents who like my work and know where to pitch it for me. Sometimes Producers contact me directly because they know my work (just today I sent a script to a modest sized Eastern Producer.) It takes time (a long time) to develop your connections. Where am I now? I'm retired and have taken up Producing as a means of helping young hopefuls find a foothold into the film-making environment. (It keeps me feeling young.)

Have no clue, what's Ms. Ashbournes problem with what I said? Because she definitely didn't cite any? I mentioned and COMPLIMENTED Stage 32 for all the good things that you, madam, yourself cited: Connections, Webinars, classes, Jobs! Or did you not read that, my dear successful, produced screenwriter? I do know that many times, people in general can't handle the truth, and everything I express was just that. I have members in my network, who have pitched, gotten requested and one was told , not what we were looking for, the other member was asked for more money. I was simply stating facts. I also said that a high % of pitch sections do not lead to options $$$$$$. It's a reality, here on S32 and outside of Stage 32. Now, you are an exception Ms. Ashbourne, a real success story, you pitched, got five options from your pitching here and your screenplays will start shooting...when did you say? I think I missed that part. Because I want to pay and go watch these features as soon as they come out nationwide. Please, post it here and don't disappeared like most of the screenwriters who's names appear on the success stories / testimonials page and this is also the truth. So, don't be telling me that you are not to busy to put me in my place because that is not your place, especially when I didn't disrespect YOU or anyone HERE, missy!!

And don't expect me to come back to here, for a back and forth debate. (chuckle) I'VE said all I had to say to you and on the subject of pitching here on S32 and the success rate of our screenwriters. Say hi to Mr. Frank Ponce, IF you hear from him.

I agree with you, Beth, it would be great to have some of those writers provide an update, as in "where are they now" - Laurie, I'm pleased to hear you are "too busy" re "conversation and engage", but I think it is YOU that is out-of-line to criticise Jorge's point of view - what are you saying, there can't be an alternate view? I thought it was an excellent question/query and he raised an interesting issue for consideration, but for YOU to suggest he's an "entitled ass" for suggesting such is a little inappropriate, not to mention YOUR need to put-them-in-their-place - "5 projects on your slate" does not make you an authority, but then I presume you would disagree, cheers.

Criticizing the platform in a snarky tone because genuine working writers don't have time, or didn't respond to a friend request as if somehow someone who is in the trenches owes you something is NOT the way to go that's what was out of line.

Lighten up, Laurie, as a "genuine writer" surely you can distinguish between "snarky tone" and facetious, IF you had the time - from where I sit, I detect a hint of a condescending attitude and Jorge deserves better than that - 'chuckle'

Look, I have supported Jorge when he has been called out in other threads, but the cynicism in this thread is 200% uncalled for. Instead of picking apart the success stories of writers who have graciously shared their experiences, (and there’s way more than Frank, if you cared to look), how about you learn the business and work on your craft instead so that you too can become one of those success stories? An attitude of graciousness and positivity will get you almost as far as stellar material. In fact, even if you have stellar material but come off as cynical or entitled your material will be tossed aside, because the reality is there is a ton of good material out there and no one wants to work with someone cynical.

Jorge, in all fairness, you mentioned some situation that you yourself have no personal first-hand knowledge — therefore it's hearsay. This anonymous "person in your network" who was asked for more money after a pitch did not provide a reason to why, neither have you. My guess is that there is much more to it as I stated before. And to just throw it out as some blanket assumption, and push false blame and expectations upon others is rather cynical—intended or not, wrapped in compliments or not. How about giving people the benefit of the doubt? Regardless of your possible misinterpreted "tone" there is subtext there—apparently you feel personally slighted by Mr. Ponce in some way? How is that the fault of Stage 32? These are personal choices of individuals. Plus, Mr. Ponce was a First-Blood screenwriting contest winner and did a lot for the community: he did a video about his success; he has done guest appearances in free webinars; and he was featured as a guest blogger, a two part blog post giving advice and sharing his experience — I'm happy to send you the links if you would like. If you have a grievance or wish to find out the actual facts of what happened with the writer previously mentioned, perhaps send a message to Erik Grossman or RB. Both would be very helpful and would wish to straighten out any misconceptions or possible issues. Also I'll send RB a message about reaching out to featured "success stories" members—I'll specifically mention Mr. Ponce—and ask if they (he) would be willing to give us an update. I think that would be interesting and fun. Best to you, Jorge. :)

Folks, please get back to Doug's thread here. Thank you.

I would like to please add that someone else's specific career/project status is no one's business. It's like asking, "Hey, how it's going with that boyfriend you were maybe going to break up with? Did he live up to what you wanted, or did he let you down?" If you have a legit reason to need that info, fine. If you don't, you're prying. And no one should be pressured to make the precise status of his/her own business public. Please don't make that an expectation on a public board. If we hold people to the standard of making all their private info public, we're going down the wrong path. It's not a court case; it's not the public record. Even Facebook, which thrives on usage numbers, allows you to share only what you want, not what is private to you.

When Dan Max, for example, has asked me about the status/statistics of Happy Writers First 10 Pages participants, I've told him that it's not my place to publicize other people's business.

Elisabeth, my original post ...”can we talk?” was intended to get a discussion going that is beneficial to all. I started by asking about the importance of story to a script and the thread has wandered off into the tall grass in the outfield. With over 100 responses, I think it's still beneficial to most (if not all). We are drifting into snarky territory now but even that can be beneficial to some; some just want to vent and hopefully others will become more knowledgeable in recognizing the sour-grape ventors. Although I would rather see the thread stick to screenwriting. Regina, you are absolutely correct in that one's career status is no one's business. I don't mind sharing my experiences with young starters – I think it helps to know that the person talking to you has spent years deep in the trenches on the front line – but you're correct, it's not anybody's business.

hey :) it's MaxXx. carry on

To take a more compassionate tone, I am sympathetic to the poster's curiosity. Quoting the poster, "What I'm interested in knowing what has happened to all the screenwriters who have had success stories after pitching? In other words, where are they now? .... " As a curious human being, I get that. However, it's no one's place to "out" other people who have made the personal (strategic or preferential) choice to keep their career details private. Neither the individual making the choice not to share, nor the platform of Stage 32 should be faulted for allowing people to make their own choices about what to share and what NOT to share. After all, any status update will be public and live on the Internet in perpetuity with millions of potential eyeballs on it.

My apologies, Doug, one last comment, then hopefully back to the thread topic. :) I did send a message to management about inquiring with some of these featured members to see if they would be willing to give the community an update, a followup of some kind. Perhaps some would be willing to share. Could be fun. Could be encouraging. Anyway, it is truly their choice. So we'll see. ;)

Doug - thanks for your opinion, the thing is one can't stop following a thread if once added a comment. Hence, it's really annoying if a thread drifts into a complete different and very personal and private direction and you can't leave it anymore (which once was possible). Hence, it always appears again in your timeline of posts even if you are no longer interested and looking for the latest that interested you. And before now everybody again gives hints how to stop getting e-mails... THAT is not what I'm talking about. Further, the number of comments does not mirror at all whether the original topic is still interesting or not as long as the discussion drifts into personal and actually private discussions. Thank you all for your understanding.

There are 106 comments, so I'm not going to go back and read all the comments, but I'll leave my personal comments. The story matters when it boils down to the characters. The audience has to relate to the protagonist in one way or another so that when they start their journey, they (the audience) places themselves in the place of the role. Zombieland, for example, worked because the audience relates more to Columbus than Tallahassee. In such a new environment, they feel like a fish out of water and have to learn to adapt.

Elisabeth – I agree that it's very annoying when some thread wanders off into the swamp as this one has. I found a little chevron at the very top of my original post that allows you to unsubscribe; I'm going to give it a try and if it works – Doug has left the building.

Doug - thanks for the hint, that's a new one. :) I'll try it and hope "Doug will leave the building" now - that has grown to a skyscraper. ;-) Getting back to the question what comes first I think the story is first as you first get an idea for a story, then think about whether it's worth to be told/filmed or not and whether it's possible to get filmed - which means of course you're thinking about the audience before you write. But for me that doesn't work the other way meaning thinking about for which "target group" I'm writing before I have a story. At least i don't get any ideas if I first decide I want to write for a certain group and then ask which story they would like. Then, from my point of view a real writer knows by the story that appears in his mind who would like it, s/he knows the audience. You know whether it's a story for little children, teenagers, the common target group from 18-49 or for seniors. So, you actually don't really think about the audience and it's the story which comes first, which appears first. This doesn't exclude that a story changes while writing and what seemed to be for adults for example suddenly is great for teenagers. That's just my experience and opinion. The story is always first.

Regina, we "all" understand private details, but that is no reason why you can't provide a percentage of continued "success" stories - where are they now? Have they continued up the chain? Have they fallen of the perch at the next hurdle? From my perspective, the "success" stories examples provided here do not fill one with great confidence - no names necessary, just give us some examples of "real" success stories, that the process works and an avenue to some measure of success - I think S32 has failed in that department and I suspect I'm not alone in that assertion - a little more tangible encouragement wouldn't hurt, especially where one had to part with some hard-earned.

Hi Chanel, to be clear, I don't work for Stage 32. The "you" in your opening line doesn't apply to me. Thanks!

I have debated over the past few days with how I might do my part to add texture to the complexity of respecting personal space/info while shedding light on how a dialogue might progress after an initial meeting. Here are 2 examples with names/details omitted. I bet some of you will be surprised by these 2 examples, and others will chalk it up to Murphy's Law. Still others will doubt my honesty, and that's up to you. :-) I'm writing about these examples because some might be surprised to learn who ended the dialogue between Writer and Producer. One was a S32 interaction; the other was not. - I introduced a non-US Writer to a Producer in his/her own country. This Producer has extensive experience in both story development and navigating film finance, so many people would consider the Producer to be added value. (In other words, this Producer is not a "nobody"; Producer has a track record and is well-known in his/her own country.) Producer READ the script and gave some notes on how the story could be framed to make it more market-viable. Producer invited Writer to consider the feedback and get back in touch. This was months ago. Producer told me a couple weeks ago that Writer never got back in touch, not even to say that Writer was choosing to pass on collaborating. I asked Writer if he/she had followed up, and Writer confirmed that he/she never got back in touch. The Writer made the choice to end the dialogue. I didn't ask why, and it's none of my business unless I want to fight to bring them together. - I was invited to read a script. I was not optimistic that I could sell that particular story, so I passed on the chance to read the script, but I offered to read a one-pager IF IF IF the Writer WANTED to send me only a one-pager. The ball was in Writer's court, as Writer is an adult who can make his/her own decisions. Writer did not want to send me a one-pager. I didn't ask why, and it's none of my business unless I want to fight to bring us together. I can understand that a Writer may not want to subject himself/herself to the scrutiny of a one-pager, but that's the compromise I felt I could make. Then as stated, the ball was left in his/her court. The question of what happens after an initial meeting often cannot be answered in a "sound bite" or a bullet point. People make their own choices about when to move forward, what to post in public, and how and when they want to invest their time and energy into building a relationship. A good fit for one person isn't right for another person. What meets your bar as "encouraging"? Might you be encouraged knowing that you can put your best foot forward and show that you are someone who will add value to someone else's life? Might you be encouraged knowing that when you achieve that, you might be given a significant opportunity? Might you be encouraged knowing that you both would have to invest time and energy into the business relationship? Knowing that the ball CAN be put in YOUR court? I hope so, but your decisions are your own. To me, and I'm obviously only one person, to be cynical or dismissive about the effectiveness of a platform's ability to connect people and to create ongoing collaborations is unfair and reductive. It takes two to tango. It takes planets aligning because there are so many factors at play. These are merely examples, and I hate that they sound phony given that I had to omit all identifying details. And how does criticizing some guy named Frank for not posting his personal business help two tango dancers come together? Disagree all you want. As a fellow human being, I hope what we do every day leads us each closer to our goals.

And if any of you writers out there are facile and willing to boil down my points into one short, cohesive line, please feel free to write better than I write!!!

I think it's a perfect summation Regina. It certainly highlights what I meant when saying, worry about learning the business and the craft and it will serve you as a writer much better than picking apart what others are doing. There are countless roads in but only one destination.

Thank you, Laurie, because I know that I'm a crappy "summarizer," exacerbated by the fact that I'm often trying to write quickly so I can get back to the 10-page outline that I need to respond to now! :-)

And agree with Laurie - in terms of career growth, we can each only work on ourselves and what is in our own control. In terms of non-entertainment societal change and social good, of course, you have to worry about changing hearts, minds, laws - but that has little to do with this thread. :-)

Hey everyone, the latest blog post is in response to some of these questions/thoughts about S32 and "success," perhaps give it a read: https://www.stage32.com/blog/A-Summation-of-Successful-Successes#comments. :)

Personally speaking, "what makes a story good" - or any piece of art - is if I like it. That answer is purely subjective and a personal answer, based on my own needs and aesthetic values. I would never question someone's proclamation on their belief that something is "good." Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I'm not arrogant or misguided to believe otherwise. If Doug would have asked, "what are the elements of story-telling?", then the conversation would certainly be different.